397 replies to this topic

[jester]

Tazok seems to be a good order-follower, who expresses his creativity but in minor details

Like snazzy new helmet.

He is definetly very like to impress lesser monsters by his sheer bulk.

That is why the werewolves are hidding in the far off corner full of angst.

[dorotea]

That is why the werewolves are hidding in the far off corner full of angst.

Aww! I feel like redeeming them all already - poor lost puppies.

Jester - that was one of your best jokes in this thread so far.

PS

Folks. I lurk, but read stuff I am. B)

[Althernai]

It always annoys me when people talk as though all killing is morally identical--self-defense equivalent to killing for power, killing in defense of others just the same as killing for fun.  Yes, you have to kill thousands of people in BG; no, you do not have to murder any of them.

In the end, they are just as dead. If you break into a castle and kill all of the guards who try to stop you, what gives you the right to call it self-defense?

Nothing gives you the right to call it self-defense, which is why I wouldn't try. Nice try, though.

So if it is not self-defense, and it is not murder -- what do you call it? Necessary and justified elimination of obstacles? Collateral damage?

[Althernai]

That's funny, I can't remember a single non-optional quest in BG1 or 2 where you had no choice except to break into someones home and kill them except in response to a threat against your own life or the life of another. You seem to have been playing a different game.

Gromnir, Yaga-Shura, Sendai, Balthazar... sound familiar? Show me where in the game any of them ever threatens you or anyone else until you break into their homes. They never even communicate with you -- except in the case of Gromnir, all you have are rumors and hearsay.

Why do people have so much trouble understanding that the protagonist in the BG series is the child of the Lord of Murder? Yes, a lot of the people you kill threaten you or do something else that makes them eligible candidates for execution. However, a lot of them simply happen to be at the wrong guard post at the wrong time.

BTW, this is another reason to try and redeem characters -- the more you redeem, the less blood on your own hands.

[Kish]

It always annoys me when people talk as though all killing is morally identical--self-defense equivalent to killing for power, killing in defense of others just the same as killing for fun.  Yes, you have to kill thousands of people in BG; no, you do not have to murder any of them.

In the end, they are just as dead. If you break into a castle and kill all of the guards who try to stop you, what gives you the right to call it self-defense?

Nothing gives you the right to call it self-defense, which is why I wouldn't try. Nice try, though.

So if it is not self-defense, and it is not murder -- what do you call it? Necessary and justified elimination of obstacles? Collateral damage?

Self-defense sometimes. Other times defense of others. Your use of loaded terminology aside, I think you're smart enough to recognize the difference between killing Dynaheir and killing a mass murderer--and if you're not, I pity you.

Gromnir, Yaga-Shura, Sendai, Balthazar... sound familiar? Show me where in the game any of them ever threatens you or anyone else until you break into their homes.

I concede my inability to show this to you. If you managed to play all the way through ToB and miss the fact that each of the Five is, in the words of the intro movie, "slaughtering their weaker siblings and innocents alike in a wave of massive destruction," then you are willfully not seeing it, and I haven't the power to force you to see what you've decided not to. I can't prove to you that the world is round should you decide it's flat, either.

[jester]

I can't prove to you that the world is round should you decide it's flat, either.

That is a rather condescending attitude which could weaken your chance to get heard, as you rightfully claimed for my choice of words above.

I know that it is slightly off topic, but to have the chance to argue with at least Sendai and Gromnir or Ilasera would be nice. They behave just as stupid as the average goblin. I wonder how they could have become the last (or the best??) of the reamining bhaalspawn? Enlighten me on this. What did Amy promise them in return that appealed to such diverse creatures (as the spice girls) alike?

[Kish]

I can't prove to you that the world is round should you decide it's flat, either.

That is a rather condescending attitude which could weaken your chance to get heard, as you rightfully claimed for my choice of words above.

You're right. Do you think talking about "collateral damage" and "elimination of obstacles" bears a relationship to anything I said or thought? Do you think "prove to me that the members of the Five threaten anyone" is a legitimate--or even sane--request? So, yes, it's condescending--coming, as it does, as a response to a gross distortion and a frankly silly question.

Each side of the "CHARNAME should/shouldn't feel guilty" debate appears to view the other side's perspective as incomprehensible and distasteful.

[Laufey]

Enlighten me on this. What did Amy promise them in return that appealed to such diverse creatures (as the spice girls) alike?

Sadly, the game does not give us much background on Melissain's actions while our heroic PC roamed the Sword Coast. Yet, presumably, her actions were persistent, significant and long-temrd.

She might have promissed the Five becoming Bhaal's Chosen Five for example - immortal servants of their Sire...some other lucrative thecratical position...cruisade under Bhaal's banner...power and recognition of their half-divinity I am guessing...she could have helped them initially to get influence among their respective peoples or something of that kind - something alluring enough to make a young boy/girl with a sword or a wand just another rival sibling to be disposed of.

It also did not have to be the same thing she promissed to each of them. The eldest trick of the book wopuld be that she promissed each of them secret support against the others four.

Well, here is what Yaga-Shura says when his soul is summoned by the Solar, and under these conditions he can as I understand it only speak the truth:

Yaga: "I was approached when I was still at the temple, still being taught the powers of Bhaal by the old witch. The greatest of all the Bhaalspawn were joining forces, I was told. We would defeat all others before us! Yaga-Shura didn't trust the others. Figured sooner or later the Bhaalspawn would turn on each other. Figured I was stronger than the rest of them, maybe. But not all of them together. So I joined. Raised an army of men and slaughtered all the Bhaalspawn we could, waiting for enough of the essence to collect in the Abyss..."

Solar: "For Bhaal, the dead god and your father, to be resurrected as he had planned before his death."

Yaga: "And we would be His right hands, all five of us. That's what we were promised. We would live as demigods, ruling Faerun with our power. Ha hahaha! It was worth taking a chance for, Yaga-Shura thinks!"

And Sendai and Abazigal both speak of Bhaal's return being a certainty in their dying moments, so I think it's reasonably safe to assume that they also believed what Melissan told them.

[jester]

Each side of the "CHARNAME should/shouldn't feel guilty" debate appears to view the other side's perspective as incomprehensible and distasteful.

No, I chose the wrong words to further my argument, but an escalation of words doesn't further anything but the divide. I made my statement above with BobTokyo about the pacifist game and the grey areas. That is where I wanted to go anyway. As both of you said most of these terms are (sadly) charged by many political debates. (I can vo**t when I think of the use of 'collateral damage' for killed civilians during the war in Yugoslavia in a press briefing by a military spokesman)

She might have promissed the Five becoming Bhaal's Chosen Five for example - immortal servants of their Sire...some other lucrative thecratical position...cruisade under Bhaal's banner...power and recognition of their half-divinity I am guessing...she could have helped them initially to get influence among their respective peoples or something of that kind - something alluring enough to make a young boy/girl with a sword or a wand just another rival sibling to be disposed of.

Servants of their Sire??? He is dead! Can't they read. Godhood is up for grasps. One of them is going to be his heir. Why cooperate? We know Balth's take, but Sendai and Abaz seem rather carefree to me.

EDIT: @ Laufey: True, but noone mentions their own shot at being a god. They never even considered the possibility for themselves from what I read above. Very unlikely I think.

Edited by jester, 29 March 2004 - 01:11 PM.

[dorotea]

Each side of the "CHARNAME should/shouldn't feel guilty" debate appears to view the other side's perspective as incomprehensible and distasteful.

And honestly guys - I cannot see why. I am not taking sides in this particular case, mind it. Only trying to stir you in the direction of forgetting the presumed hostility and look at the facts again.

Fact number 1.

The Protagonist is 'by the plot' the child of Murder. Not just any other evil God mind it (say of vengeance, strife, deception, poisoning, storms, whatever other portfolios are out there) By FR lore chance and Bio choice it is Bhaal who seeded the children. Thus we are faced with fact accompli.

Fact number 2.

Protagonist has a choice what to do with their power and chose any career, alignment, gender, race pleases them - but they are turning into a Slayer nonetheless and have a chance to damage their friends unintentionally.

Fact number 3.

Whatever the sins all Five Bhaalspawns committed - they are your siblings by 'divine' blood but still the closest you get. And you are presented (in case with Sarevok) with a little interplay suggesting what could have happened if Gorion picked Sarevok in that temple not you.


My question is - should PC always feel as pristine shiny and guiltless and remorseless or should they at least try to role-play their background?

I mean - comon. I am not blaming PC for killing all the endless 'evil' folk that attacks you first or turns hostile if you try to grab some treasure etc. But seriously - slaughtering Zaranda's entire army after they attack you on her order, and all these endless Duergar slaves in Sendai's basement... Should it at least make you feel uneasy as a character? Even if you are doing this for the 'greater good' - and there is a 50/50 chance you are happily chunking everything in sight as 'true spawn' - but I assume you are like Domi, and run around with a shiny big sword of justice and song of righteousness in your heart saving elves and righting wrongs. Still, should not you feel a little bit conscious, and comprehensive?

Well, maybe I am asking all the wrong questions here. But I always though PC must be truly a hypocrite to blame Yoshimo, for example, for betrayal. After all poor Yoshi always could say - I thought you are like Yaga Shura and all the others, and by helping to get rid of you; I was doing word justice...

[Laufey]

EDIT: @ Laufey: True, but noone mentions their own shot at being a god. They never even considered the possibility for themselves from what I read above. Very unlikely I think.

As was said below your post, I think they may have decided to work together temporarily, since they may not have been certain of their ability to defeat the other four. That's what Yaga-Shura seems to say. Also, I think it's very plausible that at least one or two of them eventually meant to betray the other four, but wanted to wait until only the 'main players' were left.

[Kish]

Servants of their Sire??? He is dead! Can't they read. Godhood is up for grasps. One of them is going to be his heir. Why cooperate?

"Figured I was stronger than the others, maybe, but not stronger than all of them together." I think Yaga-Shura speaks for Sendai, Abazigal and Ilasera there, as well--they all looked at the invitation to join as a choice between dying then and there, or becoming Bhaal's most favored servants and giving up the chance to become gods.

Incidentally, Dorotea, I suspect many fewer than half of all PCs are evil--or at least, are formally declared evil by their players. (The number that I would assign an evil alignment, after reading reams of newsgroup posts that go, "...and then I kill Adalon, which isn't evil because she's rude to me..." is quite another matter.)

But I always though PC must be truly a hypocrite to blame Yoshimo, for example, for betrayal.

Just out of curiosity, does it seem relevant to you if I mention that I consider it quite evil to attack, say, Saladrex or Nevaziah?

(Red dragon in Watcher's Keep and lich in the Graveyard, in case the names don't ring bells.)

[jester]

Still, should not you feel a little bit conscious, and comprehensive? I always play neutrally aligned chars and that seems how you should end out more or less anyway. For me everything about the PC is warped out of proportion.

BTW Kish good point. I never kill lonely, talkative Saladrex. Nevaziah only shows up for parties with Edwin I think.

As for the Five. I see your points in why they forged this group, but I just think they would be sneakier. Think about it -while your arguments still hold true regardless-. Take any of the other four. Let's say Sendai. A quick checklist (all this cannot be proven of course, but it's my take on them)

You do know: Mighty, mighty other bhaalspawn (not the chinchilla) being hunted down by Illasera. Balth is hiding. Why not find out why Yaga is invincible? At least send some scouts. Try to kill the dragon while the others are distracted.

Yaga Shura: Comit your entire army while the others are just sitting around getting stronger? Sure now you joined forces, but after the fall of Saradush. Who's next? (taking into account that until you show up at the bridge, he must have thought you perished inside S.)

Illasera: Although you voluntered, because you are 'the hunter' of the five. What are the others up to behind your back. If Charname is perhaps more powerful than all the five, it would be better to strike a deal now.

...and so on. I accept the arguments why they joined initally (good move Amy ), but there should be more sheming taking their characters into account during ToB.

[Althernai]

Self-defense sometimes.  Other times defense of others.  Your use of loaded terminology aside, I think you're smart enough to recognize the difference between killing Dynaheir and killing a mass murderer--and if you're not, I pity you.

I wasn't speaking about the actual 'mass murderers'. I meant all of the stupid guards that you have to get through to get to the person you want to deal with. Even so, I recognize the difference between what Irenicus does and what the protagonist has to do. All I ask is that you recognize that no matter the difference in intentions and methods, the people you kill are just as dead.

I concede my inability to show this to you.  If you managed to play all the way through ToB and miss the fact that each of the Five is, in the words of the intro movie, "slaughtering their weaker siblings and innocents alike in a wave of massive destruction," then you are willfully not seeing it, and I haven't the power to force you to see what you've decided not to.  I can't prove to you that the world is round should you decide it's flat, either.

As the player, I am fully aware of the fact that the Five are 4/5 evil and 1/5 misguided. However, I don't know where the character gets this certainty from. You have the word of one woman, rumor and hearsay and some incidental writings (Yaga-Shura's journal). This is a rather thin pretext for breaking into people's fortresses.

[BobTokyo]

That's funny, I can't remember a single non-optional quest in BG1 or 2 where you had no choice except to break into someones home and kill them except in response to a threat against your own life or the life of another. You seem to have been playing a different game.

Gromnir, Yaga-Shura, Sendai, Balthazar... sound familiar? Show me where in the game any of them ever threatens you or anyone else until you break into their homes. They never even communicate with you -- except in the case of Gromnir, all you have are rumors and hearsay.

TOB was pure hack and slash. That said, an assasin claiming to be a representative of the 5 attacks CHANAME at the start of ToB, and every exchange CHANAME has with the five includes threats on CHANAME's life based on CHANAME's status as Bhaalspawn; even the Deva indicates that these are the final battles. CHANAME has no logical reason not to believe that it's kill or be killed.

As to killing the minions, that's almost entirely optional. You can stealth past the vast majority of the fights.

[BobTokyo]

Just out of curiosity, does it seem relevant to you if I mention that I consider it quite evil to attack, say, Saladrex or Nevaziah?

Certainly the Gaxx-guardian lich fights are immoral, though you have no chance to back down once you engage. CHANAME would have to be an idiot not to realize that keeping Gaxx trapped was a good thing.