117 replies to this topic

[hlidskialf]

*Wonders if he's the only one who associates elemental magic forces with Druids and not mage-types.*

[Rathwellin the Bard]

For me it's both.

Mages tend to have more elemental attack spells. Druids tend to be better at summoning and shapeshifting to elemental form. But there is a lot of overlap between the two.

However to me the inspiration for Refinements appears to be the 2nd level of Watcher's Keep.

[Caedwyr]

I associate strong ties with the elemental planes and druids. However, mages can also specialize in elemental magics, and this ability is stolen from both 2nd and 3rd edition sources. In 3ed I believe its called Mastery of the Elements.

Like Rathwellin said, Refinements seems to focus on a specific area and I wanted this ability to stay in line with that focus. Also, the BGII engine does not distinguish between earth based spells, air based spells, water based spells of the primary elements. The secondary and tertiary element system of BGII has some pretty large gaps as well, which taken together results in a redefined element system.


Also, I don't feel the elemental affinties of the sorcerer are approriate for the class. Now that you've mentioned it, it strikes me that they would fit best for a druid. However, I've offered this idea as a possible replacement that would give the player an option to enhance their elemental abilities as a mage/sorcerer.

Edited by Caedwyr, 06 May 2004 - 08:44 PM.

[Littiz]

As I said, you could ALREADY play an elemental sorcerer by choosing a majority of elemental based spells (I did it).
Similarly you can now choose TWO elemental HLAs. It's very linear to me.

And anyway, it has become a point of honor, by now

Edited by Littiz, 08 May 2004 - 01:04 AM.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

As I said, you could ALREADY play an elemental sorcerer by choosing a majority of elemental based spells (I did it).
Similarly you can now choose TWO elemental HLAs. It's very linear to me.

One of the first test characters I built was a Fire based Sorcerer. An Elven woman named Pi.

It actually worked really well. I had a *lot* of fire spells to choose from.

However for my next test sorcerer I tried to make an Ice & Poison/Acid based guy and I was not happy at all with the results. Even after *trying* to pick most every appropriate spell he *still* had as many or more Fire & Magic based damage spells. There just weren't enough non-fire spells to pick from.

This doesn't really have anything to do with Refinements. Bio picked the spells they did ... and that selection just didn't include nearly as many of the non-fire based spells. However that spell selection makes it *very* hard to play a non-fire based 'elementalist sorcerer.'

The Refinements Fire/Ice/Electricity/Acid delineations don't really match some of the Air/Earth/Fire Elemental conjurations really well so I didn't include the Air and Earth elemental conjurings (though I did keep fire since it matched perfectly). However even if you add those two spells into my list the non-fire elements come up very short by comparison.

I also didn't include the generic 'Protection from the Elements' 7th level spell or 'Protection from Energy' 8th level spell in any particular list though both could easily fit an elementalist concept.

Fire Spells

1st Level
Burning Hands
Chromatic Orb (iffy but at some levels it does fire or blindness)

2nd Level
Agannarzar's Scorcher

3rd Level
Fireball
Flame Arrow
Melf's Minute Meteors
Protection from Fire

4th Level
Fireshield Red

5th Level
Conjure Lesser Fire Elemental
Sunfire

6th Level
Conjure Fire Elemental

7th Level
Delayed Blast Fireball
Summon Efreeti

8th Level
Incendiary Cloud

9th Level
Meteor Swarm
Shapechange (fire elemental form)


Ice Spells

1st Level
Chill Touch

2nd Level
*none*

3rd Level
Protection from Cold

4th Level
Fireshield Blue
Ice Storm

5th Level
Cone of Cold

6th Level
*none*

7th Level
*none*

8th Level
*none*

9th Level
*none*


Electrical Spells

1st Level
Shocking Grasp

2nd Level
*none*

3rd Level
Lightning Bolt

4th Level
*none*

5th Level
Protection from Electricity

6th Level
Chain Lightning

7th Level
Summon Djinni

8th Level
*none*

9th Level
*none*


Acid / Poison Spells

1st Level
*none*

2nd Level
Melf's Acid Arrows
Stinking Cloud

3rd Level
*none*

4th Level
*none*

5th Level
Cloudkill
Protection from Acid

6th Level
Death Fog

7th Level
*none*

8th Level
*none*

9th Level
*none*

And anyway, it has become a point of honor, by now

Littiz I have a lot of respect for what you and TG have done with Refinements. It's superb.

However this statement sounds really bad ... even with the emote icon.


I'm not going to bother to argue this one anymore. But if you guys want to free up 4 icons I think that you should start here.

Edited by Rathwellin the Bard, 08 May 2004 - 05:47 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Rathwellin: while I agree to a point (some of those new elementsl innates are less useful to a sorcerer than some of the other new abilities), I still think they are fitting to the class. And to say the least, I was never a fan of removing working and fitting stuff. I have no problems with adding new (and maybe more fitting) HLAs to this class' repertoire in the future, but I'm positive that none of us (Littiz & myself) would ever want to remove those.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Are you guys going to be adding new spells at some point?

[T.G.Maestro]

Are you guys going to be adding new spells at some point?

All I can say at the moment is that we INTEND to add new ones under the name: Spell Revision component. This would include new (pnp) spells with brand new icons to fill in holes in the actual spell systems, and the revision of many existing BG2 spells. A small example from the revision plans is that MR will affect every spell under 10th level (as it should), only very specific spells wil bypass it (Breach will be affected for example).

[Littiz]

I've always liked the 4 elemental sorc hlas, and *I* intend to play with them.

=>

obvious point.

[Jinnai]

Are you guys going to be adding new spells at some point?

All I can say at the moment is that we INTEND to add new ones under the name: Spell Revision component. This would include new (pnp) spells with brand new icons to fill in holes in the actual spell systems, and the revision of many existing BG2 spells. A small example from the revision plans is that MR will affect every spell under 10th level (as it should), only very specific spells wil bypass it (Breach will be affected for example).

Does that include redoing the saving throws?

Anyway does this mean i should go get out my Complete Book of Magika? There are tons of elemental based spells in there. Even spells specifally for bards, ninjas, wu-jin, etc.

[T.G.Maestro]

Does that include redoing the saving throws?

Yes. Some spells will have their saving throws revised.

Anyway does this mean i should go get out my Complete Book of Magika? There are tons of elemental based spells in there

Sure, but not now. If Littiz will be able to mod once again in a few months, we will start to work on a few new components, and add all the possible bugfixes (I'll try to collect and handle them in the meantime, so keep them coming). I'm not sure wheather we'll start with the Spell Revisions or not, but even if we do, the first part of that work will be the "revision" part of existing spells. Only then will we start adding a few new (or even better: missing) spells.
So I say it has minor significance at the moment.

[Schatten]

Sure, but not now. If Littiz will be able to mod once again in a few months,

months?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Patience is a virtue....

I?m more than willing to wait. My gut feeling is that based on the huge number of changes that Refinements made that an extended period is needed to find all bugs and to do proper balancing. In that context to me a few months is about the right time to really take a hard look at Refinements.

In the mean time we can pester TG with ideas for version 2.0+ and actually play with what?s out there.

[Feanor]

Sure, but not now. If Littiz will be able to mod once again in a few months,

months?

Don't be too hasty, Schatten... You really expected that Littiz and Maestro started the work for version 2 only a month after the version 1 was released ? What Maestro does now is only collecting suggestions and bugs...

[T.G.Maestro]

Feanor, Rathwellin: good words, guys!
Schatten: yes, months. Littiz deserves that break, he did an exhausting finish on the mod, and RL matters always come first. .
As for me, I'll stay here and collect/correct every bug we find, so hopefully we'll have a flawless v1.xyz at the day Littiz returns to modding.

[Jinnai]

Exactly. Even people who get paid to make corrections and bugfizes get breaks (albiet smaller, but then again they are getting paid).

Although, TGM will you be correcting any of the bugs yourself? not talking her about balacing or adding new abilites, etc (although that would be nice as it would speed things along)...

[Caedwyr]

Actually I'd also recommend taking a look at Weidu packaging techniques. For a the basics it isn't too difficult to learn. Just use a good example (I found the aPack from aVENGER to be very helpful, as well as most of the mods at the gibberling3), and it isn't too hard to pick up. Sure, your .tp2 won't be perfect the first time but there are lots of people around who seem willing to help. Knowing how the mod will be packaged makes it much easier to know what and how to doccument everything, and will give you a glimpse as to how complex it can be to track down a single change if things aren't explained clearly and very explicitly.

[T.G.Maestro]

Although, TGM will you be correcting any of the bugs yourself?

Heh, I already corrected a bunch of them.. see v1.3 !

not talking her about balacing or adding new abilites

*HER*???

Actually I'd also recommend taking a look at Weidu packaging techniques. For a the basics it isn't too difficult to learn

Thanks for the advice Caedwyr, I'm trying to understand it these days. At the moment it is too complicated for me (and I don't have enough time to examine its methods more closely), so I'm advancing VERY slowly.

Sure, your .tp2 won't be perfect the first time

You see, thats my main fear. While I could learn the basics in time, even then I wouldn't dare to do anything to Refinements - I always trusted this part of the mod to Littiz, and he did a perfect job here. I really don't like the thought that I mess things up on occasion..

there are lots of people around who seem willing to help

It might be possible that our small team will need assitance once we start working on v2 - while we CAN handle every part of the mod, I think we should ask for help on a few points.. scripts for example. Whatever, we shall see.

Now please, get back on topic everyone. Sorcerers. And their changes;)

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 15 May 2004 - 04:27 AM.

[Jinnai]

not talking her about balacing or adding new abilites

*HER*???

her=here

[T.G.Maestro]

Development on this class gets closed - they'll get Shockwave, but nothing more in the (near?) future.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 20 May 2004 - 12:09 AM.