278 replies to this topic

[Archmage Silver]

Yes, that is the point exactly, but what about if a person of our time was shown something like a flying vehicle? No, the person wouldn't think it as a magical construction, because we are very familiar with the concept of technology. Not many of us believes in magic anymore anyway (I am an exception, of course).

[oralpain]

a quasi-god could be Asmodeus, the lord of Nine Hells. He is not a deity but he is surely more powerful

Actualy, if you use the "Guide to Hell", Asmodeus is one of the two orginal powers that created the entire multivers. There is no one more powerful than Asmodeus (his real name is Ahriman, btw). The entire Blood War is just a cover for his real plot. Not many know his true power or history and he wants to keep it that way.

As for the magical ratings in the old 1e Manual of the Planes and the 2E High level campaigns, I feel that theya re totaly absurd and would never use them. You can certainly have worlds with little or no magic and worlds with much magic, but I don't think it should be constrained in to the extremely narrow famework of the magical rattings in those products.

[Bane]

What are his true plans and how powerful is he compared to FR gods and lastely don't the Celestials have any uber powerful beings, Thanks in advance

[NiGHTMARE]

Probably something like this:

Mortals..........Gods....................Ao........................................Ahriman

[Stone Wolf]

Well, Ao is only powerful in the Forgotten Realms. In another realm he could probably be spanked by any other power.

[oralpain]

What are his true plans and how powerful is he compared to FR gods and lastely don't the Celestials have any uber powerful beings, Thanks in advance

I'll sum things up briefly. Ahriman is one of the two serpents of law. The other is Jazirian, who pretends to be *only* the greater goddess of the coualt (just as ariman prentends to be *only* the ruler of baator). Ahriman is LE, while Jazirain is LG. Shortly after they created the great ring (the outer planes), they had a disagreement on what the center of the multiverse should be. Things turned violent...

Ahriman's many hundred mile long form now lies battered at the bottom of the deepest canyon in Nessus (the 9th hell). The first Baatezu (Pit Fiends and Cornugons) spawned from his pooling blood. Ahriman's goal, one that hes has been slowly but surely making progress in, is restoring his power so he will beable to destroy Jazirian, then destroy the multiverse, then rebuild it the way he always wanted it to be.

Ahriman does not seek worshipers to restore his power. Unlike other gods the serpents predate the rule of belief in the planes so they do not need worshipers to sustain their existance and gain no power from them. Instead Ahriman feeds of the souls/life forces of those who beilve in nothing (lack of beliving in gods is not enough they have to have a lack of belief so profound as to not be strong enough to even reform as a petitioner on the plane of there alignment when they die). These life forces are slowly and painful consumed by Ahriman over thousands of years. This is the trickle of energy that is allowing his to heal his wounds. Asmodeus (ahrimans alias) may seem to promote belief in order and evil in an attempt to strengthen the baatezu, but this is just a deception, the real goal to foster dispair and disbelief.

A power (god) can only be killed by another power of equal or greater stature, or by losing worshipers. Ahriman doesn't need worshipers and there are no powers of his stature besides Jazirian (offically Ahriman (and Jazirian) is listed as a "greater" god, but it's clear he is something more). However, his current condition means that in his true form he can barely even move, let alone leave baator. Also he cannot send more than one avatar at a time beyond baator while that singel avatar is away he can have no others (normaly greater gods can have 10 avatars at time, so can Ahriman, but only in baator). He occasionally grants spells to choice mortals though baatezi agents, but only to take away the power at inoportune times to sow more disbelief.

Basically even if the FR gods knew who Ahriman was (they don't) they could not do much about it directly, he could match any or all of them on his home turf. Like wise his power to directly affect other gods is severely limited since he can't leave the hells. He has to work through the Baatezu (while being careful to make sure that even they don't really know whats going on).

The celestials equivalent power is Jazirian of course. She lays low and watches the progress of Ahriman intently, biding her time for when she'll inform the other powers of the truth and make a stand against him.

If you want to know more, buy the "Guide to Helll" ESD from somewhere, it's around 4-5 dollars.

I have a speculation that you might find interesting, if you know some of the history of Vecna. In many of the adventures and supliments concerning the Lich-god Vecna, it talks about how he has learned many of his secrets from "the serpent", how the serpent has confided in him alone the power of true magic, and how high and mighty this makes Vecna feel. Personally, I think the serpent is Ahriman and when Vecna is about to acomplish his greates triumph, Ahriman will ruin Vecna through deception. If he can get a God to stop beliving in anything, even itself, that could give Ahriman the final boost in power he needs to restore himself, shatter his prision and retake all of space and time.

I'm not really sure how Ao fits into this. I would assume that he was formed spontaniously when the the serpents split, to blance their extreme alignments, and to stick with the infamous "rule of three" that is so prevalent in the AD&D 2E multiverse. I would guess that he is just below them in power.

Edited by oralpain, 29 October 2004 - 11:13 AM.

[Stone Wolf]

Ao is just one of many of his kind. If each crystal sphere has an overseer watching over the Powers there, and the number of crystal spheres is potentially infinite....

[oralpain]

What about powers that are represented in many crystal spheres? Could Ao force Corellon into mortal form as he did with the human dieties during the time of troubles, or can these overgods only affect powers who are more closely tied with there crystal spheres?

[Archmage Silver]

Yes, I think that it is indeed so. If a power has power in an another sphere besides Realmspace I don't think that Ao can directly force the power to take mortal form for example.

[Stone Wolf]

They can effect that Power in their own Realm, but they can't do anything about the other Realms. I think Ao could prevent a Power from granting spells in the FRs, but not elsewhere.

[Caedwyr]

I think what essentially happens with regard to Ao and forcing the different deities into mortal form during the time of troubles, is that if the said god was slain in the FR and they were also worshipped in other spheres, then they would essentially be 'Dead' in the FR, but really just lose all access rights to that crystal sphere. They'd still be alive and well elsewhere, but be unable to access the FR.

[Bane]

They can effect that Power in their own Realm, but they can't do anything about the other Realms.  I think Ao could prevent a Power from granting spells in the FRs, but not elsewhere.

But are all the gods worshipped in other spheres like Bhaal (he prolly isnt because he used to be a mortal) and if not what about gods that weren't originally mortal like Selune or Shar? I know Lolth is worshipped in others so that there are some worshipped in other spheres.

[NiGHTMARE]

The majority (but not all) of the Forgotten Realms' demi-human deities are worshipped elsewhere. Most of the FR human gods are confined to Realmspace and their homeplane.

[Archmage Silver]

Is there a god/goddess who is worshipped in more than two spheres?

[Stone Wolf]

From the Forgotten Realms? The Elven pantheon is worshipped on other spheres I think. There are other Powers out there that are worshipped in many places, just not in the FRs. Powers like that tend to be quite a bit more powerful than Powers that are only on one sphere, like most FR Powers.

[Archmage Silver]

Yep, FR was what I meant. Lolth is worshipped in two spheres, yes? But can you tell me a name of a god/goddess ie. from the elven pantheon who is worshipped in more than two spheres? Oh, and if it isn't too much trouble, could you tell me the worlds names too.

[Stone Wolf]

The Elvish pantheon is pretty much worshipped everywhere there are elves. I don't know where to find a list of those worlds though.

[Archmage Silver]

Okay, but does that make the Elven Pantheon the most powerful group of gods and goddesses on Toril?

Edit: Post count: 1000.

Edited by Archmage Silver, 14 November 2004 - 11:47 AM.

[Andyr]

Worship on other spheres does not affect a deity's power on Toril, so no.

[fallen_demon]

From the Forgotten Realms?  The Elven pantheon is worshipped on other spheres I think.  There are other Powers out there that are worshipped in many places, just not in the FRs.  Powers like that tend to be quite a bit more powerful than Powers that are only on one sphere, like most FR Powers.

not neccaseraly though, i remember hearing that lloth is worshiped on hundreds of worlds, but she is just a lesser power in 2e and an intermediate in 3e. I'm not sure if she is supposed to gain more power btw the campaign years, or if the creators just decided she seemed more powerful than a lesser power.