247 replies to this topic

[BobTokyo]

Shadow Dragon: An invisible, nondetectible, level draining opponent who blinds you with no save? Well, it's an avoidable fight, but still

Hooo, read that description once again please. The Breath weapon blinds for 1 round only, as it was in the original SoA game (and pnp). Its AoE is rather small, it is very unlikely that it would affect more than 1-2 creatures.

Missed that for some reason. Lack of coffee, maybe?

I like the use of Blur much more than the use of II+ND.

Will the level drain be temporary or permenant util a restoration spell is applied?

[T.G.Maestro]

Will the level drain be temporary or permenant util a restoration spell is applied?

Bob, you REALLY don't read the posts here..! Look:

It is not permanent. And it only drains 6 levels without save, the additional 5 requires a save vs. breath at 0.

[BobTokyo]

Will the level drain be temporary or permenant util a restoration spell is applied?

Bob, you REALLY don't read the posts here..! Look:

It is not permanent. And it only drains 6 levels without save, the additional 5 requires a save vs. breath at 0.

Argh.

Gomen, ne? Sorry 'bout that.

[Schatten]

"I don't think they are unbeatable at all. I was able to kill improved Abazigal (and he had a lot of assistants, even an adult dragon) and he had 500 HP. I was doubting just because they had more than Abazigal. But seeing how TG calculated the HP, I think he is right. "

so you say you beat imp aba with soa chars with lvl 17 or 18?
the hp of the dragons are tgm guessing for balance and not calculated. he still can change them if we whine enough.



"I don't agree. After level 20, you won't receive too much bonuses : the THAC0 is capped at 0, the saving throws are capped also. I mean : they are beatable (don't forget they don't have any assistance). "

sure. not all dragons should have assistances. if all dragons become assistances it would be boring because its repetative. some if not most should be tough enough alone. (arent dragons solo creatures? or do they always have someone around?). was a hint for tob to not give every dragon goons.
ehm... you become more powerfull over tob, you know?




"If a player can beat this version of Firkraag with a party that lacks TOB level items, spells and HLAs then I'm darn impressed by his SOA skills."

and patience for reloads.




"His Tougher Sendai proves the contrary, but hey..! "

is it for high modded games with more powerfull n/pcs? i dont think so.

[T.G.Maestro]

the hp of the dragons are tgm guessing for balance and not calculated.

Really guys, is it THIS hard to read the posts thoroughly?
Schatten, those values aren't calculations, they were taken strictly from the 3rdE MM. Again, please take a look at here:
3rdE MM.

sure. not all dragons should have assistances

Only Adalon will have some assistance - two Adamantite Golems and her Imp messenger you meet in Ust Natha. I was thinking on having her summon a group of adventurers for her help if she gets Injured - Silver Dragons are well known for their habit of making pact with adventurers and having allies around.
And one more thing: Nizidramanii'yt will charm any kind of hostile reptiles in his LoS.

[Galactygon]

it would result in complete disaster in the long run - many (essential) mods like Ascension require a high-level character with powerful abilities. If you make every party weaker (in level and equipment), encounters like the Ascension Five would become impossible. Could you provide a good tactic vs. Improved Abazigal for a 16th-18th level party?

This is where I jump in and say: "Time to uninstall those components and install special compatible patches". Since all creatures would have revised scripts and abilities (as in PnP), there would be no need to install any of those improved battle components. And whatever is required (as in Ascension final battle) would be made compatible via a seperate mini-mod.

What I don't prefer seeing is combining a variety of rules from different games in a mish-mash and say it works fine to one/several people, while many of the others don't find it logical/clean/simple.

Remember that you are making the false assumptions that everyone's favorite mod is either Ascension/Kelsey, and everyone plays both those mods. I am pointing this out because you referred to Ascension as an essential mod:

...many (essential) mods like Ascension require a high-level character with powerful abilities.

Nevertheless, a dozen of compatible mini-mods will be the making.

-Galactygon

[Galactygon]

In the thread "An ideal spell mod", what I meant in saying creativity is the way to go, I fully support this and am encouraging people to put in a slight spice of something else. However a clash of rules isn't as preferable to a number of people as one where the two work in harmony with each other, not against each other.

-Galactygon

[T.G.Maestro]

What I don't prefer seeing is combining a variety of rules from different games in a mish-mash

Why do you call it mish-mash? Is BG2 a "mish-mash" simply because it contains numerous elements from 2nd and 3rd E too? Or were the developers "mish-mashing" when they tried to create 3rdE - and obviously used some elements from older editions? I wouldn't say so.
I agree - rules are rules. But BG2 is a game that allows us to alter these rules, or make them even better if we can. This is the greatest feat of this game in my eyes.

and say it works fine to one/several people, while many of the others don't find it logical/clean/simple.

Are you saying that these modifications on Dragons would only work for me (and maybe for several other players)? Simply because I overstep a few (questionable) rules? I find this strange, to stick to some written words that strictly.

Remember that you are making the false assumptions that everyone's favorite mod is either Ascension/Kelsey, and everyone plays both those mods

No, I'm not saying that everyone plays these mods. I say that the MAJORITY of players play these mods.

Since all creatures would have revised scripts and abilities (as in PnP), there would be no need to install any of those improved battle components.

Neh, I don't agree with this one. What you are suggesting is to drop the whole BG2 system and use the classic pnp rules for a partial TC. I don't know why, but I prefer BG2's system to classic pnp, and I'd never change these good-old scripts and balance to the "classics". To be honest, I'd never again play 2ndE pnp in my life (there are dozens of better RPG systems in my eyes), while I would play BG2 over and over again.

as one where the two work in harmony with each other, not against each other

Please point me to any rules I use that would clash and result in bad gameplay...

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 08 June 2004 - 12:01 AM.

[the bigg]

About the not-usable potions, there's an opcode (180) called disallow item. You could use it (for every potion) to make potions non-usable. I believe it's the same thing as what Littiz had done with use Scrolls.

[T.G.Maestro]

Thanks bigg, I'll take a look at it tomorrow!

[Feanor]

QUOTE 
don't forget they don't have any assistance


*khm* 

I don't like this "khm", TG. It makes me tremble... Are you thinking what I believe you're thinking ?

Feanor, I think you misread my comment. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

EDIT: If you mean that you don't feel player character get more powerful after hitting TOB levels then I disagree.

No, I wanted to say that the difference isn't huge.

"If a player can beat this version of Firkraag with a party that lacks TOB level items, spells and HLAs then I'm darn impressed by his SOA skills."

and patience for reloads. 

I wanted to say that this Firkraag could be beaten by a party in SOA (remember that in SOA you could reach, even without any mods, around 3,5-3,7 million XP). I say this having in mind my experience with the Ravager. He has 534 HP and a lot of resistances. I summoned 5 Mordekainen, haste them, then I kept my party at a safe distance, after some Mordekainen were destroyed I summoned some greater elementals and my party only delivered the final blow.
As for Firkraag, only that Domination and Dire Charm worries me (it really drives me crazy when I lose control of my party members).
But some question :
1. What is Heat Metal ability ?
2. Why Firkraag claws have that +10 bonus for damage ?
By the way, I think those improvements fit perfectly with Items Upgrade and Ruad mod.

[T.G.Maestro]

One more thing Galactygon: please note that these are only PROPOSED changes. Mostly ideas, suggestions to improve these creatures in the BG2 system to an acceptable level. None of their stats are set, so I'd gladly accept any constructive criticism (as in the thread for the Revision of the Five). But please understand that I can't do much with comments that call this a comlpete mish-mash.

[T.G.Maestro]

I don't like this "khm", TG. It makes me tremble... Are you thinking what I believe you're thinking ?

Here:

Only Adalon will have some assistance - two Adamantite Golems and her Imp messenger you meet in Ust Natha. I was thinking on having her summon a group of adventurers for her help if she gets Injured - Silver Dragons are well known for their habit of making pact with adventurers and having allies around.
And one more thing: Nizidramanii'yt will charm any kind of hostile reptiles in his LoS.

But some question :
1. What is Heat Metal ability ?
2. Why Firkraag claws have that +10 bonus for damage ?

1.: A greater Red Dragon has the ability to heat metal objects to the point where they beging to glow. This causes creatures to drop their metal weapons immediately or suffer continuous (increasing) fire damage every round and fight with greatly reduced THAC0. Creatures in metal armors are the real victims of this ability - they start to burn inside their armors, suffering an increasing amount of fire damage every round, and the AC of their armor gets worse too.
I'm not sure how to implement this ability though, may be impossible.
2.: Firkraag has that +10 bonus because of his size and age. Compare it with the younger/smaller dragons, and you'll notice the improvement in damage.

[Feanor]

1.: A greater Red Dragon has the ability to heat metal objects to the point where they beging to glow. This causes creatures to drop their metal weapons immediately or suffer continuous (increasing) fire damage every round and fight with greatly reduced THAC0. Creatures in metal armors are the real victims of this ability - they start to burn inside their armors, suffering an increasing amount of fire damage every round, and the AC of their armor gets worse too.

I had some doubts about this ability, TG. The fire breath of a Red Dragon should be enough to fry an adventurer, they don't need also a heat metal ability.

[T.G.Maestro]

I never said I WILL add those abilities, I only listed them because they should get them in pnp( ).
Talking about pnp...: for example the Shadow Dragon Breath drains more than 5D6 levels in pnp (5-30), which would be a bit.. frustrating in BG2, don't you think?

Still, I think a once/day heat metal wouldn't make the battle really harder in overall. But again, I don't know how to implement it correctly, so...

[Feanor]

Talking about pnp...: for example the Shadow Dragon Breath drains more than 5D6 levels in pnp (5-30), which would be a bit.. frustrating in BG2, don't you think? 

Correct, the draining level is one of the abilities which I fear most...

Still, I think a once/day heat metal wouldn't make the battle really harder in overall. But again, I don't know how to implement it correctly, so... 

I wanted to say something else, TG. I think that heat metal effect should be implemented in the dragon's breath, because isn't their breath what heat the metal (and lower the damage a bit if dragon's breath becames too dangerous) ?

[T.G.Maestro]

I wanted to say something else, TG. I think that heat metal effect should be implemented in the dragon's breath, because isn't their breath what heat the metal (and lower the damage a bit if dragon's breath becames too dangerous) ?

No, its not their breath that heats up metals, they do it at will by concentrating on a single target. Their breath lasts only a few seconds, not enough to heat fortified armors to the point where they start to melt...
I'd like to point out though that I didn't increased the damage of the Red Dragon Breath, I only added the knockback/uncounsciousness effects as per the wizard spell.

[Feanor]

Their breath lasts only a few seconds, not enough to heat fortified armors to the point where they start to melt...

First of all, I don't think that "Heat metal" really heats the metal to the point where they start to melt. That would mean instant death. If the metal, starts to melt, that means it reached AT LEAST 700-800 degrees. At that moment you are already dead. I assure you, even 80 degrees is hot enough to make serious problems to an adventurers. And metal could reach this temperature even it is exposed to a wave of flames only for some seconds.

[T.G.Maestro]

Um, the only thing I know that Heat Metal is a separate ability from their breath weapon. But you are rifht about the melt-thingy .
It'd be nice to see a precise description for this ability to see how much they can heat up metal after all...

[Feanor]

That's about Nizzy : isn't too much to give him Insect Plague ? I mean I totally agree to improve Dragons abilities to fight in melee, but, still, I think they should be weak spellcasters.

Edited by Feanor, 08 June 2004 - 02:03 AM.