78 replies to this topic

[Quitch]

In Baldur's Gate I, Imoen was a pure thief. When we found her in Baldur's Gate II she was dualed to a mage. I'm not interested in the technical reasons for this, but rather why Imoen would have gone this route. How do you imagine Imoen changing? Why did she change? How was it accomplished?

I see three scenarios:

1. Imoen found she had a gift for magic. Maybe something of Gorion rubbed off; maybe it's something to do with her mother; maybe she's just a natural, but for whatever reason magic has come easily to her.

2. Deciding one day she wanted to be a mage, Imoen studied hard, every night when the party rested she'd work on improving her skills, or after the fall of Sarevok she spent her time studying magic in Baldur's Gate.

3. Feeling a need to continue what Gorion started, Imoen takes up magic as her way of remebering the father in her life.

I was wondering what you all think of the above, and if you have any ideas of your own. As ever, it's all about the why.

[Cyric]

I would say she learned a trick or two from Dynaheir or some other spellcaster, she liked it and so she decided to study the art of magic more.

EDIT:
I can't see her learning magic because of a deep/serious reason (like 'Feeling a need to continue what Gorion started' etc.). She just thought it could be fun.

Edited by Cyric, 29 June 2004 - 07:10 AM.

[Bane]

Although Imoen enjoys thieving (pickpocketing for example) she may not have felt that this was the only thing that she could do. Also partly due to your point 3 I think that coupled with her intelligence made her want to be a mage. I must admit I have not played BGI but from when you meet volo in ToB and he talks of Imoen she interjects about sorceresses who are powerful and beautiful, so child hood fantasies of being a powerful, respected, beautiful and intelligent magic user helped her to warm up to the idea of being a mage.

Really it's anyones guess but they all seem to wrok

[Keltosh]

Hmm somehow i do not see imoen wanting to learn magic to continue what Gorion started. Even though she loved him, i do not think this very likely given her character.

As for the other 2 options..

The first option could do ... and quite frankly it's the most likely in my opinion. It would be interesting though if she and CHARNAME tried to guess WHY she has an easy time learning magic.
Maybe you could write some banter on that, with the player able to choose between some possible reasons to discuss with Imoen.
I do not think that someting of Gorion rubbed off would be a good reason, but her mother or she being a natural seems likely, especially, as she discover in the game, given her heritage.

As for the other option.. Imoen studying hard magic could also be ok, but you'd have to give her a strong reason, since she's so easygoing. The soundest reason i can think of is her travelling with CHARNAME's, since i think she always took for granted that they would be together.
This would require writing class-specific banters, but it would be great to hear Imoen saying a barbarian she did it cause "at least one of us must be able to use magic, and knowing you.. " or "hey i always see you casting fireballs around and i wanted to try too" or even "I know you're a cleric, but i want to point out to you that even mages can be useful" or "I did it in order to take better care of you since you're so hopeless "

Well, just my thoughts of course

Edited by Keltosh, 29 June 2004 - 07:35 AM.

[Feanor]

I think he did for curiousity. After all, wouldn't you all be curious to try those marvellous spells from ADD ? And Imoen showed from the beginning a very inquisitive spirit...

[BobTokyo]

She was educated in Candlekeep, surrounded by mages and priests, even if she didn't originally take that path. She was always interested in magic (when you meet her outside Candlekeep in BG1 she has "liberated" a wand of Magic Missiles). In most BG1 parties her travelling companions will include at least one Mage (Dyna, Xar, Zan, Edwin, Quayle). I see her studying books she's slipped from their packs late at night, or scrolls looted from the bodies of your many magic using foes. She's smart, she has the educational background, she has the opportunity to study, and magic is both exciting and useful. So, I'd say #s 1 & 2.

Besides, the father in her life was Winthrop, at least from her BG1 bio.

[JPS]

Another reason might be that after a few months on the road, she realizes that being a thief in the real world is quite different from picking a couple of pockets in Candlekeep, and that it's not really something she wants to spend the rest of her life doing.

I got the feeling that she became a thief because she was already doing a lot of hiding and poking through other people's belongings just for fun, and when she left with the main character, that was something she could keep doing to make herself useful. She probably wouldn't be interested in the more violent aspects of being a thief, like killing people and stealing things that are actually valuable from someone who's innocent, so after becoming reasonably good at finding traps and opening locks, I don't think she would be interested in learning more about the thief's trade. This clashes with her ToB epilogue, of course...

[BobTokyo]

Another reason might be that after a few months on the road, she realizes that being a thief in the real world is quite different from picking a couple of pockets in Candlekeep, and that it's not really something she wants to spend the rest of her life doing.

I got the feeling that she became a thief because she was already doing a lot of hiding and poking through other people's belongings just for fun, and when she left with the main character, that was something she could keep doing to make herself useful. She probably wouldn't be interested in the more violent aspects of being a thief, like killing people and stealing things that are actually valuable from someone who's innocent, so after becoming reasonably good at finding traps and opening locks, I don't think she would be interested in learning more about the thief's trade.

Agreed completely here.

This clashes with her ToB epilogue, of course...

Maybe, but it also better matches her in-game character. She's Neutral Good; she might become a Robin Hood type, stealing from the evil and giving to herself (or the poor), but you can't run a Thieves' Guild that way. There just aren't enough "evil" folks out there to rob, and an Intelligent, Good character is not going to be able to keep lying to herself about how much harm her guild is doing forever.

[kirkjobsluder]

I vote for curiosity myself. I suspect that the character development is more along the lines of a 1st ED Bard in that she picked up enough skills as a thief to be competent, then moved on to other things.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Imoen is a mage in SoA because Bioware thought that most of the people who played with her in the party in BGI dualed her to a mage ... never mind that folks did that for powergaming reasons.

I don't have much to add to the non-mod speculation here, but I do want to say that the best 'in game reason' for Imoen to be a mage that I thought of was after I installed the Refinements mod. With this mod Imoen is a 10th level Swashbuckler dualed to a first level mage at the start of the game ... and it made perfect sense to me. She was a happy go lucky thief (or maybe swashbuckler) and then Irenicus corrupted her.

In other words and among other things it was Jon Irenicus who taught her magic.

It's evil & would explain her change in profession perfectly IMO.

Edited by Rathwellin the Bard, 29 June 2004 - 11:15 AM.

[kirkjobsluder]

I dunno, I've never seen career switching as being so strange that it needs a big in-depth dramatic explanation. It is not as if Imoen is switching from paladin to assassin.

[Quitch]

I always thought it was pure plot pice to give them an excuse for the wizzards to take her but im a tad cynical

I believe this is covered by my initial disinterest in technical issues.

This clashes with her ToB epilogue, of course...

It was quite the rubbish epilogue. The epilogue is something that will likely change, after all, your interactions with Imoen are more than likely to have an effect on her, depending on what you talk about.

In other words and among other things it was Jon Irenicus who taught her magic.

It's evil & would explain her change in profession perfectly IMO.

Since Imoen never mentions her dualing to mage, nor do you get the option to ask her about it, I believe it is safe to assume you already knew about her new career.

I dunno, I've never seen career switching as being so strange that it needs a big in-depth dramatic explanation. It is not as if Imoen is switching from paladin to assassin.

For many people, Imoen no longer being a pure thief *was* a big issue, certainly one worth fleshing out.

[JPS]

This clashes with her ToB epilogue, of course...

Maybe, but it also better matches her in-game character. She's Neutral Good; she might become a Robin Hood type, stealing from the evil and giving to herself (or the poor), but you can't run a Thieves' Guild that way. There just aren't enough "evil" folks out there to rob, and an Intelligent, Good character is not going to be able to keep lying to herself about how much harm her guild is doing forever.

Well, I suppose that "thieves' guild" could be just as vague a term as "thief" is in the AD&D sense, and then it could be an organization that's fighting evil and trying to ease the suffering of the poor just as easily as a band of robbers and murderers. The only thing needed to qualify it as a thieves' guild would be that the members are thieves...

It was quite the rubbish epilogue. The epilogue is something that will likely change, after all, your interactions with Imoen are more than likely to have an effect on her, depending on what you talk about.

...but I'm all for ditching the old epilogue and writing a new one that actually makes sense, too.

[NiGHTMARE]

Maybe the thieves guild she set up was somewhere like Zhentil Keep, where there are plenty of evil people to rob from .

[Rathwellin the Bard]

In other words and among other things it was Jon Irenicus who taught her magic.

It's evil & would explain her change in profession perfectly IMO.

Since Imoen never mentions her dualing to mage, nor do you get the option to ask her about it, I believe it is safe to assume you already knew about her new career.

Hey! I did say it was a modded game.... B)

Quitch, every time I read your responses to my posts I feel like we are speaking different languages.

:turnip2:

[BobTokyo]

This clashes with her ToB epilogue, of course...

Maybe, but it also better matches her in-game character. She's Neutral Good; she might become a Robin Hood type, stealing from the evil and giving to herself (or the poor), but you can't run a Thieves' Guild that way. There just aren't enough "evil" folks out there to rob, and an Intelligent, Good character is not going to be able to keep lying to herself about how much harm her guild is doing forever.

Well, I suppose that "thieves' guild" could be just as vague a term as "thief" is in the AD&D sense, and then it could be an organization that's fighting evil and trying to ease the suffering of the poor just as easily as a band of robbers and murderers. The only thing needed to qualify it as a thieves' guild would be that the members are thieves...

Whenever I see RPG robin-hood themed thieves outside of a revolutionary context, I'm always reminded of Monty Python's Dennis Moore sketch.

http://www.blakeneym....com/moore.html

[Quitch]

In other words and among other things it was Jon Irenicus who taught her magic.

It's evil & would explain her change in profession perfectly IMO.

Since Imoen never mentions her dualing to mage, nor do you get the option to ask her about it, I believe it is safe to assume you already knew about her new career.

Hey! I did say it was a modded game.... B)

Quitch, every time I read your responses to my posts I feel like we are speaking different languages.

:turnip2:

I saw that, but I did not realise you were explitcitly tying your explanation into Imoen being a Swashbuckler. I can't say as I understand how the Refinements change is essential to your understanding of events (hence your reply I assume), and I could see what explanation being equally valid for Thief or Swashbuckler Imoen, though obviously I consider it flawed for the reason I noted above.

[Quitch]

The Imoen I write? What about the Imoen Bioware wrote? My view on their writing has always been that Imoen is only serious when discussing Irenicus and issues which deeply effect her, and even then only when talking directly to the PC. At all other times she is joking around.

Edited by Quitch, 30 June 2004 - 06:30 AM.