78 replies to this topic

[BobTokyo]

But did he mean actual 20, or the half-elven equivalent of 20 (around 35 or so)? Given all that's she's gotten up to in the past, and the fact a half-elf of 20 wouldn't even be a teenager in human terms, I'd say the latter is far more likely.

35 or so while physically and emotionally around 20 seems more likely, as per standard aging for a half-elf.

Or perhaps David was just being facetious while trying to drown out complaints about Jaheira's relationship with CHARNAME.

Edited by BobTokyo, 06 July 2004 - 08:34 AM.

[Feanor]

Jaheira can't be 20 since, in BG1, she is mentioned as an old friend of Gorion.

[BobTokyo]

Jaheira can't be 20 since, in BG1, she is mentioned as an old friend of Gorion.

True, but on the other hand it is firmly established in BG and SOA that Gorion was hiding information from you throughout your life, and in ToB it was established that his final letter to you was a lie, so he's not a reliable source of information.

(I'd just as soon trash or retcon the whole ToB re-write of Gorion's history, but the pathalogical liar approach is as valid as any other).

[Feanor]

and in ToB it was established that his final letter to you was a lie, so he's not a reliable source of information.

Bob, can you detail this a little ? I don't remember where or when it was established such a thing...

[BobTokyo]

and in ToB it was established that his final letter to you was a lie, so he's not a reliable source of information.

Bob, can you detail this a little ? I don't remember where or when it was established such a thing...

At the end of your second visit to Candlekeep in BG1, if you manage to keep away from the guards long enough to get to Gorion's room, you find his final letter to you. Here is the text:

[Gorion's Note]Hello <CHARNAME>,
If you are reading this, it means I have met an untimely death.  I would tell you not to grieve for me, but I feel much better thinking that you would.  There are things I must tell you in this letter that I might have told you before.  However, if my death came too soon then I would have never been given the chance.  First off, I am not your biological father, for that distinction lies with an entity known as Bhaal.  The Bhaal that I speak of is the one you know of as a divinity.  In the crisis known as the Time of Troubles, when the Gods walked Faerun, Bhaal was also forced into a mortal shell.  He was somehow forewarned of the death that awaited him during this time.  For reasons unknown to me, he sought out women of every race and forced himself upon them.  Your mother was one of those women, and as you know, she died in childbirth. I had been her friend and on occasion, lover.  I felt obligated to raise you as my own.  I have always thought of you as my child and I hope you still think of me as your father.  You are a special child.  The blood of the Gods runs through your veins.  If you make use of our extensive library you will find that our founder, Alaundo, has many prophecies concerning the coming of the spawn of Bhaal.  There are many who will want to use you for their own purposes.  One, a man who calls himself Sarevok, is the worst danger.  He has studied here at Candlekeep and thus knows a great deal about your history and who you are.

And yet in ToB we learn that your mother was in fact a priestess of Bhaal who intended to sacrifice you. That ret-con means that not only did Gorion hide the truth from you all of his life, but lied (or at best offered a half truth) even when he knew he was facing his death.

The real reason for this is that plot changes were made between BG and ToB, but in-game it looks like Gorion was a completely unreliable source (unless the Solar and the Wraith are lying).

[Briannandoah]

And yet in ToB we learn that your mother was in fact a priestess of Bhaal who intended to sacrifice you. That ret-con means that not only did Gorion hide the truth from you all of his life, but lied (or at best offered a half truth) even when he knew he was facing his death.

The real reason for this is that plot changes were made between BG and ToB, but in-game it looks like Gorion was a completely unreliable source (unless the Solar and the Wraith are lying).

Is there any reason at all to aguire the ToB? Because the more I learn about it the more it seems it is just a way to get more money to Bioware , without giving anything in return (but frustration and anger).

Oh yes, I have thought also that both Imoen and pc are about 20, but Imoen is few months younger (though this was never mentioned in BGI, at least to my knowledge). But since this gives nothing to the thread, and I have nothing more to say why I thought Imoen became a mage than I've already said, so I wont ramble on anymore.

Edited by Briannandoah, 06 July 2004 - 09:33 AM.

[BobTokyo]

And yet in ToB we learn that your mother was in fact a priestess of Bhaal who intended to sacrifice you. That ret-con means that not only did Gorion hide the truth from you all of his life, but lied (or at best offered a half truth) even when he knew he was facing his death.

The real reason for this is that plot changes were made between BG and ToB, but in-game it looks like Gorion was a completely unreliable source (unless the Solar and the Wraith are lying).

Is there any reason at all to aguire the ToB? Because the more I learn about it the more it seems it is just a way to get more money to Bioware , without giving anything in return (but frustration and anger).

It depends on what you're looking for. The additions it makes to SOA are welcome, especially Watcher's Keep and the Wild Mage. Taken by themselves, many of the individual dialogs are quite good, and some of the fights are fun if you're into tactical combat. Some nice mods won't work without ToB installed.

Personally I dislike most of the story elements in ToB, especially the new major villain and the huge chunks that make almost no sense, but I do like the technical side of it.

[Quitch]

But did he mean actual 20, or the half-elven equivalent of 20 (around 35 or so)? Given all that's she's gotten up to in the past, and the fact a half-elf of 20 wouldn't even be a teenager in human terms, I'd say the latter is far more likely.

He stated that he was surprised she was twenty, because he'd always thought of her as around thirty. Myself, I've always taken this as being whatever the half-elf equivalent of twenty was.

[Jinnai]

That makes sense if you use it based on human physical age otherwise a 20-year old elf pc would definatly be far too young.

Although in half-orc years he'd be a bit younger as they age more rapidly than humans.

Edited by Jinnai, 09 July 2004 - 05:23 AM.

[Briannandoah]

But this makes me wonder how old then is my elf PC or half-elf PC, because it is stated that the PC is 20 in the beginning of the BGI, no matter what race your are ? So are they the elf/half-elf equivalent to humans? And if that is so, how about Imoen then? If Imoen is a bit (few months) younger, but has still grown up with the PC in Candlekeep, and she is human.

So if we assume, that Imoen is about 19-20, and that the PC is 20 in human years, no matter what race s/he is, then the PC would still be a youngster if s/he is elf or half-elf. And how old that would make the PC in BGII? 21-22? Quite a young elf/half-elf to have a romance, hmm?

Argh, maybe it is better not to think about this, it makes all so difficult .

[Laufey]

But this makes me wonder how old then is my elf PC or half-elf PC, because it is stated that the PC is 20 in the beginning of the BGI, no matter what race your are ? So are they the elf/half-elf equivalent to humans? And if that is so, how about Imoen then? If Imoen is a bit (few months) younger, but has still grown up with the PC in Candlekeep, and she is human.

So if we assume, that Imoen is about 19-20, and that the PC is 20 in human years, no matter what race s/he is, then the PC would still be a youngster if s/he is elf or half-elf. And how old that would make the PC in BGII? 21-22? Quite a young elf/half-elf to have a romance, hmm?

Argh, maybe it is better not to think about this, it makes all so difficult .

When it comes to romance with PC elf/half-elf, I tend to think of it in either of two ways.

1. PC is the *equivalent* of 20, for an elf or half-elf. Or for a dwarf, half-orc, halfling or gnome, for that matter.

2. The Bhaaltaint messes things up, and means PC is more mature than a normal elf/half-elf would be.

Given the mention of how Imoen is just a little bit younger than PC, I think I lean more towards the second explanation.

[Laufey]

The concept of 'half-elven' is a pretty weird one to try to establish an actual consistent age range, despite the D&D attempt to portray half-elves as a seperate race. Fundamentally it's a mix of two races. Is a man whose great grandmother was a half-elf still a half-elf himself? Does a union between a human and an elf always result in someone with the *exact* characteristics of a standard 'half-elf'? I have a hard time believing it.

I'm not sure exactly what the rule books say, but I would guess that a half-elf can inherit more or less of the human and elven characteristics, respectively. So, they could have more or less pointed ears, and the lifespan given for half-elves (Think it's 150 years or so?) would be the most common one, but there could be half-elves who lived longer or shorter lives, depending on how much 'elf' they had in them. They would, however, always have a longer natural lifespan than a typical human and a shorter one than a typical elf.

Of course, that is only my personal interpretation.

[Quitch]

But this makes me wonder how old then is my elf PC or half-elf PC, because it is stated that the PC is 20 in the beginning of the BGI, no matter what race your are ? So are they the elf/half-elf equivalent to humans? And if that is so, how about Imoen then? If Imoen is a bit (few months) younger, but has still grown up with the PC in Candlekeep, and she is human.

So if we assume, that Imoen is about 19-20, and that the PC is 20 in human years, no matter what race s/he is, then the PC would still be a youngster if s/he is elf or half-elf. And how old that would make the PC in BGII? 21-22? Quite a young elf/half-elf to have a romance, hmm?

Argh, maybe it is better not to think about this, it makes all so difficult .

When it comes to romance with PC elf/half-elf, I tend to think of it in either of two ways.

1. PC is the *equivalent* of 20, for an elf or half-elf. Or for a dwarf, half-orc, halfling or gnome, for that matter.

2. The Bhaaltaint messes things up, and means PC is more mature than a normal elf/half-elf would be.

Given the mention of how Imoen is just a little bit younger than PC, I think I lean more towards the second explanation.

1 cannot be true simply because of the age of Imoen. You are brought to Candlekeep as a baby, she arrives ten years later, and is twenty when you leave. There's no way you could be the elven equivilent of 20 by then, you'd simply BE 20.

[Laufey]

But this makes me wonder how old then is my elf PC or half-elf PC, because it is stated that the PC is 20 in the beginning of the BGI, no matter what race your are ? So are they the elf/half-elf equivalent to humans? And if that is so, how about Imoen then? If Imoen is a bit (few months) younger, but has still grown up with the PC in Candlekeep, and she is human.

So if we assume, that Imoen is about 19-20, and that the PC is 20 in human years, no matter what race s/he is, then the PC would still be a youngster if s/he is elf or half-elf. And how old that would make the PC in BGII? 21-22? Quite a young elf/half-elf to have a romance, hmm?

Argh, maybe it is better not to think about this, it makes all so difficult .

When it comes to romance with PC elf/half-elf, I tend to think of it in either of two ways.

1. PC is the *equivalent* of 20, for an elf or half-elf. Or for a dwarf, half-orc, halfling or gnome, for that matter.

2. The Bhaaltaint messes things up, and means PC is more mature than a normal elf/half-elf would be.

Given the mention of how Imoen is just a little bit younger than PC, I think I lean more towards the second explanation.

1 cannot be true simply because of the age of Imoen. You are brought to Candlekeep as a baby, she arrives ten years later, and is twenty when you leave. There's no way you could be the elven equivilent of 20 by then, you'd simply BE 20.

Yes, that is what I said. But there is nothing simple about it - as previously stated, if you simply were an elf aged 20, you'd be an infant incapable of adventuring. Something else must factor in, and I think the Bhaaltaint is the most reasonable explanation.

Of course, the *real* explanation is that the game designers neglected to fill up a plothole.

[Jinnai]

But this makes me wonder how old then is my elf PC or half-elf PC, because it is stated that the PC is 20 in the beginning of the BGI, no matter what race your are ? So are they the elf/half-elf equivalent to humans? And if that is so, how about Imoen then? If Imoen is a bit (few months) younger, but has still grown up with the PC in Candlekeep, and she is human.

So if we assume, that Imoen is about 19-20, and that the PC is 20 in human years, no matter what race s/he is, then the PC would still be a youngster if s/he is elf or half-elf. And how old that would make the PC in BGII? 21-22? Quite a young elf/half-elf to have a romance, hmm?

Argh, maybe it is better not to think about this, it makes all so difficult .

When it comes to romance with PC elf/half-elf, I tend to think of it in either of two ways.

1. PC is the *equivalent* of 20, for an elf or half-elf. Or for a dwarf, half-orc, halfling or gnome, for that matter.

2. The Bhaaltaint messes things up, and means PC is more mature than a normal elf/half-elf would be.

Given the mention of how Imoen is just a little bit younger than PC, I think I lean more towards the second explanation.

1 cannot be true simply because of the age of Imoen. You are brought to Candlekeep as a baby, she arrives ten years later, and is twenty when you leave. There's no way you could be the elven equivilent of 20 by then, you'd simply BE 20.

Yes, that is what I said. But there is nothing simple about it - as previously stated, if you simply were an elf aged 20, you'd be an infant incapable of adventuring. Something else must factor in, and I think the Bhaaltaint is the most reasonable explanation.

Of course, the *real* explanation is that the game designers neglected to fill up a plothole.

Or unless Imoen has some elven blood in her to slow down her aging process

I think i remember hearing from someone offical, I think it was Skip Williams but I don't want to quote him, that although dwarves, elves and half-elves live much longer, they do grow up in their early years much more rapidly. Its only when they hit puberty they slow down. I think they made that distinction because people pointed out how odd several things would be, such as someone staying as a newborn for close to 75 years as an elf, etc. It still takes a bit longer, but they said not much. Besides even in nature where species develop from youth very rapidly to keep from being a burden on their parents.

That would still however mean Imoen would also be physically older than the pc still.

[Laufey]

I think i remember hearing from someone offical, I think it was Skip Williams but I don't want to quote him, that although dwarves, elves and half-elves live much longer, they do grow up in their early years much more rapidly. Its only when they hit puberty they slow down. I think they made that distinction because people pointed out how odd several things would be, such as someone staying as a newborn for close to 75 years as an elf, etc. It still takes a bit longer, but they said not much. Besides even in nature where species develop from youth very rapidly to keep from being a burden on their parents.

That would still however mean Imoen would also be physically older than the pc still.

Now I'm imagining a poor, unfortunate elf, having to go through a puberty that lasts 80 years or so.

[Quitch]

But this makes me wonder how old then is my elf PC or half-elf PC, because it is stated that the PC is 20 in the beginning of the BGI, no matter what race your are ? So are they the elf/half-elf equivalent to humans? And if that is so, how about Imoen then? If Imoen is a bit (few months) younger, but has still grown up with the PC in Candlekeep, and she is human.

So if we assume, that Imoen is about 19-20, and that the PC is 20 in human years, no matter what race s/he is, then the PC would still be a youngster if s/he is elf or half-elf. And how old that would make the PC in BGII? 21-22? Quite a young elf/half-elf to have a romance, hmm?

Argh, maybe it is better not to think about this, it makes all so difficult .

When it comes to romance with PC elf/half-elf, I tend to think of it in either of two ways.

1. PC is the *equivalent* of 20, for an elf or half-elf. Or for a dwarf, half-orc, halfling or gnome, for that matter.

2. The Bhaaltaint messes things up, and means PC is more mature than a normal elf/half-elf would be.

Given the mention of how Imoen is just a little bit younger than PC, I think I lean more towards the second explanation.

1 cannot be true simply because of the age of Imoen. You are brought to Candlekeep as a baby, she arrives ten years later, and is twenty when you leave. There's no way you could be the elven equivilent of 20 by then, you'd simply BE 20.

Yes, that is what I said. But there is nothing simple about it - as previously stated, if you simply were an elf aged 20, you'd be an infant incapable of adventuring. Something else must factor in, and I think the Bhaaltaint is the most reasonable explanation.

Of course, the *real* explanation is that the game designers neglected to fill up a plothole.

Or unless Imoen has some elven blood in her to slow down her aging process

I think i remember hearing from someone offical, I think it was Skip Williams but I don't want to quote him, that although dwarves, elves and half-elves live much longer, they do grow up in their early years much more rapidly. Its only when they hit puberty they slow down. I think they made that distinction because people pointed out how odd several things would be, such as someone staying as a newborn for close to 75 years as an elf, etc. It still takes a bit longer, but they said not much. Besides even in nature where species develop from youth very rapidly to keep from being a burden on their parents.

That would still however mean Imoen would also be physically older than the pc still.

Odd to who? A human of course, which is a rather silly way of looking at it.

[Jinnai]

But this makes me wonder how old then is my elf PC or half-elf PC, because it is stated that the PC is 20 in the beginning of the BGI, no matter what race your are ? So are they the elf/half-elf equivalent to humans? And if that is so, how about Imoen then? If Imoen is a bit (few months) younger, but has still grown up with the PC in Candlekeep, and she is human.

So if we assume, that Imoen is about 19-20, and that the PC is 20 in human years, no matter what race s/he is, then the PC would still be a youngster if s/he is elf or half-elf. And how old that would make the PC in BGII? 21-22? Quite a young elf/half-elf to have a romance, hmm?

Argh, maybe it is better not to think about this, it makes all so difficult .

When it comes to romance with PC elf/half-elf, I tend to think of it in either of two ways.

1. PC is the *equivalent* of 20, for an elf or half-elf. Or for a dwarf, half-orc, halfling or gnome, for that matter.

2. The Bhaaltaint messes things up, and means PC is more mature than a normal elf/half-elf would be.

Given the mention of how Imoen is just a little bit younger than PC, I think I lean more towards the second explanation.

1 cannot be true simply because of the age of Imoen. You are brought to Candlekeep as a baby, she arrives ten years later, and is twenty when you leave. There's no way you could be the elven equivilent of 20 by then, you'd simply BE 20.

Yes, that is what I said. But there is nothing simple about it - as previously stated, if you simply were an elf aged 20, you'd be an infant incapable of adventuring. Something else must factor in, and I think the Bhaaltaint is the most reasonable explanation.

Of course, the *real* explanation is that the game designers neglected to fill up a plothole.

Or unless Imoen has some elven blood in her to slow down her aging process

I think i remember hearing from someone offical, I think it was Skip Williams but I don't want to quote him, that although dwarves, elves and half-elves live much longer, they do grow up in their early years much more rapidly. Its only when they hit puberty they slow down. I think they made that distinction because people pointed out how odd several things would be, such as someone staying as a newborn for close to 75 years as an elf, etc. It still takes a bit longer, but they said not much. Besides even in nature where species develop from youth very rapidly to keep from being a burden on their parents.

That would still however mean Imoen would also be physically older than the pc still.

Odd to who? A human of course, which is a rather silly way of looking at it.

Odd in the sense that several dialogues mention the pc as her older sibling, both in age and maturity level. I cannot see someone witht the mental capasity of a 10-year-old being more mature than imoen to an extent she'd look up to him or her.

Then even if that were so, several dialogues with other human npcs in party might be nessary to explain why she looks up to him or her so because they'd likely think the same way. A few, like Dynaheir might not, but someone like Edwin would.

Then there is the fact any elf or dwarf of older generation, espeically someone like Kaigan or Faldorn wouldn't follow a "kid".

My guess would be that then as Laufrey pointed out, there can be some mention of how the Bhaal taint messed this up.

Edited by Jinnai, 11 July 2004 - 06:00 AM.