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An earlier attempt at Redemption?


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#41 Tom

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 03:05 AM

will Jon be able to turn into the slayer? If he can he should be able to do it without some of the negative effects that it brings to the PC

Also, i suggest for his stats:
Str: 16 (in that final movie he seems to have reasonably well developed muscles.... dont ask me why...)
Dex: 17 (once again, in that final movie he seems rather dextrous - especially when he flips that slayer over his head)
Con: 10 (no real motivation to make this high... he doesnt seem that fit)
Int: 18 (of course)
Wis: 17 (maybe less, but i cant imagine him not being a LITTLE wise - after al he did set up quite a few taps for the PC)
Cha: 8 (or maybe less, he doesnt seem to be that much of a people person...)

That gives him 86 stat points over all, which isnt that powerfull, but its good enough... certainly nothing compared to sarevoks 95
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#42 dorotea

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 06:39 AM

I think I will keep Irenicuses 'in-game' stats. He is a bit overpowered but I care more for 'staying true to the character' than for 'balance'. After all most of the BG II original npcs are 'unbalanced' and Sarevok is a good example ...
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

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#43 dorotea

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 03:53 PM

And by the way here are Irenicuses in-game stats if you are interested:

Strength 13
Dexterity 20
Constitution 14
Intelligence 19 (why not 20 I ask?)
Wisdom 18 (now *this* I cannot believe - I would have given him 3 )
Charisma 17 (alright some ladies find the leather straps hot :lol: )

And the final sum is ... 101! :blink: OK Jonny is another superman ...
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


American Military Operation Name Generating Device

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Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes

#44 insolent_worm

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 06:55 PM

Yeah, it's a high sum, but I think it looks ok... while the wisdom might be a bit ridiculous, the high scores (such as wisdom) that don't fit in with him as far as story goes really won't have any impact on gameplay. Works out pretty well, IMO.

#45 Tom

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 04:02 AM

20 dexterity!!! :blink: :blink: what is he? a circus performer??
btw... how did u find those stats?
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side.

#46 Caedwyr

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 07:01 AM

All Doreta had to do was look at Jon's .cre file. It has all the details on what he is using, what his stats and saving throws are, and what scripts he might use (besides the zone specific ones).
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#47 Tom

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 02:25 PM

ah ok, i thought it was something like that. Do you have to get a special program to look at the .cre files?
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side.

#48 Sphira

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 11:52 PM

Personally I can see a reasonably high Dex for a wizard. They can't wear as much armor so it's a good thing to have high dex (but I perfer higher intellgence for Jon). As for the wisdom... it depends. Before the soul transferation, I could see him having high wisdom. After getting the CharName's soul, his wisdom drops like a rock. :D Once gaining a soul back and regaining his emotions he didn't think as carefully as he once did.

I except him to have a high total, anyway. *nods* The man has to have SOMETHING to back up his desire to become a god.
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#49 jester

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 07:26 PM

I simply loved the idea behind redemption and getting my evil twin and the paragon of elven magery in my team would be very nice ? to say the least. As to Jon?s attempts at godhood I think that once tempted I think he would pull out all stops no matter what his stats where back then ?referring to WIS of course. This is why I am curious as to why Elthan ? if I remember his name correctly- is still alive. And ,if I remember correctly, Sarevok is not dumb!

@Sarevok and Jon: They never met, because before his downfall brought about by the protagonist, I imagine him being just one of so many aspiring Bhaalspawn. However, after Sarevok?s demise shook the Sword Coast, I think everybody took notice. Once Jon would set out to seek redemption or even take up a new life, he would rather belittle Sarevoks desire of becoming a good and question the meaning of godhood althogether. (I must admit I have only briefly yet joyfully delved into your novel).


@ Jon being impotent: I think the dryad harem are not so much for sexual pleasure but an attempt to regain that bond to nature, also to sensuality and intimacy, everything that his mind can remember while his heart cannot. He would not be interested in raping imoen or minsc for they do not represent anything from the past and the present holds no meaning in terms of lust. I always thought he was ? almost like we humans are- after being expelled from eternal life almost castrated and the wicked gods left his memory intact to remind him what he has lost. He desired revenge above everything else because the Seldarine kept his intellect intact and revenge is a quite feasible ?intellectual? issue, while redemption, sorrow and remorse are often beyond reasoning and without being able to feel, Jon is doomed to seek revenge in SoA. And why shouldn?t he. Everything is working out as planned until the final chapters. Anyway mere rape would be out of character for him.

@being overpowered:
He should be regarding his adamant, lifelong ? as he is an elven mage this means a lot- study of everything magic and ? taking up that Hannibal Lecter hint- he is beside his craving for redemption beyond any other aspirations. Whoever returns from hell and lives to tell has another pace in life. Whereas Sarevok has been in limbo waiting for the final climax to happen, Jon had it all, lost it all and had nothing left but to face the music ..? final SoA scene.

So he should be high level, excellent stats and all, but like some NPC should interact in certain encounters, e.g. hindering certain outcomes. I agree I have to look into TOB into more detail to find out which ones.

@having jon from the start: for a good player this could also mean to further his redemption after Ellisime opened up and revealed everything that is worth being redeemed about Joneleth. For the evil path the protagonist can further his revenge rather than to leave it to some final-scene-demons and trick Jon into a second and prolonged tragedy. After all the protagonist only helped those snotty elves because it was to vanquish Jon?s hopes. Why not exploit him on all the way to becoming a god?

Anyway keep up good work!
:rolleyes: :D

Jon always reminded me a bit of Trias from Planescape, a fallen angel of some sort.
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#50 fallen_demon

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Posted 01 June 2004 - 09:06 PM

Wisdom 18 (now *this* I cannot believe - I would have given him 3 )

It would make him a more effective spellcaster, and bioware never inted for people to see enemies stats so they don't have to match up. IMO if you think it dosn't fit the character lower it, he still has more than enough points, same with the charisma, He never struck me as a peoples person,although i supose it would have been high pre-exile, maybe it represents that he can be charismatic, he did manage to strike an alliance with the drow.

@Jonny not choosing saravok-I thought it was just refearing to how PC had more of the bhaalspawn essance, though i don't have the slightest idea how Jonny could know this; custom divitation hla?

@jonny raping Imoen and the dryads-always took it that way, i thought it was just that bio wouldn't admit it. Kind of liked the ambiguity
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#51 dorotea

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Posted 02 June 2004 - 06:08 AM

Jon always reminded me a bit of Trias from Planescape, a fallen angel of some sort.


Nod. Interesting - especially in the context of the Deva quest. Excellent analysis, jester. I am sorry it took me a few months to notice this piece. :P I agree with almost everything. In fact, if you read the scene in Elysium - with nymphs, you notice similarities in my approach to the dryads story.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#52 -dragonlord-

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 06:09 AM

P.S.: Imoen was *never* raped... Quitch says it's confirmed by Bioware.
She was "simply" tortured.


it's interesting that the dryads state in jonjon's lair
"he has tuoched you as we hasn't he"

#53 dorotea

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 06:18 AM

Ooops - wrong thread.

LR plot is taking the route of Imoen NOT being raped by anybody... and I would rather not go into arguments here -- check the Quitch's mod thread -- it is very comprehensive, and the Most Redeemable thread, to see my opinion on JI and his exploits.

I do want to be compatible with other mods... but there are limits to which I would go. So far Quitch's Imoen Relationship mod seems like better fit to my views on Imoen and the torture affair than Imoen Romance.

Edited by dorotea, 23 August 2004 - 06:25 AM.

Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


American Military Operation Name Generating Device

The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes

#54 Caedwyr

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 10:05 AM

As a slight aside from the above discussion, I'd just like to say that I'm very happy that LR has been realized. It's nice to see how far my original complaint/comments have gone in inspiring you to give us a proper Redemption-type mod for Irenicus.
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#55 dorotea

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 01:08 PM

Waves to Caedwyr. Hey! Where have you been? I missed you. Yes, we have come a long way since the original idea... that was indeed yours and I am delighted that you pushed me in that direction, however much controversy now surrounds this mod.

Thanks for stopping by! I hope you will like the mod if you ever to play it. I should put your name into the Readme in the next relase -- as a first inspiration source. :D
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


American Military Operation Name Generating Device

The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes

#56 Quitch

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 06:01 AM

I should mention that I never said "Bioware said Jon didn't rape Imoen", what I said was that David Gaider didn't believe Imoen was raped. However, that was entirely his opinion rather than any sort of "fact".

#57 dorotea

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 09:51 AM

I should mention that I never said "Bioware said Jon didn't rape Imoen", what I said was that David Gaider didn't believe Imoen was raped.  However, that was entirely his opinion rather than any sort of "fact".

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Well, you know where I stand on this -- but also, I think the issue is rigged with ambiguities -- and it was done quite on purpose, to provoke strong emotions, which it does. Bio, IMHO, undertood a very big secret of making a great story long time ago -- to have the player hooked leave as much ground as possible for imagination... without compromising the integrity of the story. It is a fine art of balancing on the edge without falling down, and the impact is more dramatic by following this tactics. ( It has the same effect on the mind as a half-dressed lady vs totally naked one, the nude is less exiciting).

Having said that, I still stick to my own theory, but rather would not go into the details again.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


American Military Operation Name Generating Device

The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes

#58 -elya-

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 10:02 AM

P.S.: Imoen was *never* raped... Quitch says it's confirmed by Bioware.
She was "simply" tortured.


it's interesting that the dryads state in jonjon's lair
"he has tuoched you as we hasn't he"


that doesn't neccecairly have to mean that he touched them physicly (he surched in imoens head (looks to me that he did that with a magic of sorts) ) or that he touched them in a sexual manner.



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