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An earlier attempt at Redemption?


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#21 dorotea

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Posted 03 April 2003 - 10:42 PM

so the redemption mod itself could be enourmously deepened, its not so much irenicus at the 11th hour seeking a way to redeem his horrible punishment


Interesting ... but you see, I actually feel it will not make the story deeper - it will cheapen it, as I feel an enormous value in the tale that is indeed that of *Irenicus at the 11th hour seeking a way to redeem his horrible crimes* - not punishment but crimes.

I actually feel sorry for *Irenicus* himself - not for his innocent clone who is picked up by pc because he can be such a wonderful ally in the future ...

I genuinely feel that Jon's punishment was unjust and foolhardy and that it led to horrendous consequences. Therefore I tried to correct that, and extract the *actual* Irenicus from the Abyss in order to redeem *him* and not his clone or any other entity. There is no question in my mind of his guilt but I see the value in repentance not in punishment that would lead to more suffering of everybody involved.

Sorry if it is not what you were looking for but if I ever write/code another mod with Jon as joinable npc - it will always be *him*, not his clone.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#22 Userunfriendly

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Posted 05 April 2003 - 02:32 PM

dorotea, i have yet to play redemption, so i dont really know the plot all that well...(my computer is a stinking p3, so it tends to freeze on ascention)

but i do have to admit the most interesting part of the mod, and the main reason i downloaded it was the idea of riddles....i LOVE raymond smullyan, and have many of his books...

so i really dont have any feel for the plot yet, and am seriously looking foward to playing it later...right now i am busy studying...

but you are the author, and quite frankly all the hints you've dropped makes me itch to play it, and i am seriously looking foward to running redemption in all its glory....and seeing just what happens at the end...what wild plot turns and twists you have made...

you rock!!!
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#23 dorotea

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 01:17 PM

dorotea, i have yet to play redemption, so i dont really know the plot all that well...(my computer is a stinking p3, so it tends to freeze on ascention)


I can commiserate - I built all my computers myself and do hardware upgrades every other month, but I can imagine it feels rather bad to have a slow system.


but i do have to admit the most interesting part of the mod, and the main reason i downloaded it was the idea of riddles....i LOVE raymond smullyan, and have many of his books...

so i really dont have any feel for the plot yet, and am seriously looking foward to playing it later...right now i am busy studying...


I hope you will like it - there are only three riddles though, but I think these are fun. :)

but you are the author, and quite frankly all the hints you've dropped makes me itch to play it, and i am seriously looking foward to running redemption in all its glory....and seeing just what happens at the end...what wild plot turns and twists you have made...


Hey - I don't mind having an input, in fact any ideas anybody may have on the matter should be expressed freely. I would welcome them even if they don't end up in the actual mod - they may trigger some thought process in my head that will lead to a new scene or two.

Thanks for commenting here. B)
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#24 wizard of thay

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 05:26 AM

Right lets try to inspire those braincells with yet another attempt to inspire an earlier attempt at redemption
You state that you wish to redeem jon and not a clone cool. we'll have that in. and you also stated that
it would not be fun to trail around a level one character through throne of bhaal, again I agree.
So with that in mind how about this the real Jon and he doesn't join your party.
Yep the entire redemption is conducted out of the party. the strength of the redemption mod was always the story. so we will play to that and also steal a few things from a few hollywood films.
but first let us make a few assumptions.
1) Sarevok is able to find/enter your stronghold in throne of Bhaal. he is able to do this because of his study of death and his heritage.
2) So Irenicus should logically be able to do the same. the link to the PC actually being deeper as they shared the same Bhaal essance.
3) Upon entering Irenicus finds himself stripped of his remaining power and unable to leave (possibily by the Solar?
4) Cue Hannibal Lecter type discussions with Irenicus when you return to the stronghold.
Why did you kill the main defence for Saradush.
Do you really think you can trust Sarevok?
Arguements withg Cespanar
That sort of thing.
5) The conversations that you have with Irenicus will affect his appearance in the final battle
i.e if you have treated him badly or have influenced him towards greed and power then he attacks
you in the final battle. If through the conversations he has seen the possibility of redemption then he sides with you.
well yet again thats me sticking my nose into someone elses mod. so I shall just say auf wiedersehn.
Oh Just remembered that you liked adding extra lines of speech for irenicus. so how about this the bloke who voiced Jon, one David Warner also played Sark/Dillenger/MCP in Tron the movie. more lines of speech Maybe???
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#25 dorotea

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 12:46 PM

Right lets try to inspire those braincells with yet another attempt to inspire an earlier attempt at redemption
You state that you wish to redeem jon and not a clone cool.


Just to let you know - I am thinking about this one all the time and have a several scenes in mind already, including a long conversation between Ellesime and PC, in-party conflicts with Jaheira and Imoen ( maybe Minsc too), long squabble with Sarevok (as you suggested) and a scene or two at Saradush and after the Bhaal shrine ghost. Jonny will most likely 'not' be your romance option ( even for damsels ) but will have a stormy relationship with PC that will end with his Redemption or not. Oh yes, and maybe something with Demogorgon.

I shall answer you in more detail later today as now I am trying to finish some stuff in the Edwin Romance. :)

I may post several snippets of the new mod dialogs here some time this month. The plot should be really fun to write.

I may call it 'Irenicus as npc in ToB' or 'Redemption - the Longer Road'

Oh Just remembered that you liked adding extra lines of speech for irenicus. so how about this the bloke who voiced Jon, one David Warner also played Sark/Dillenger/MCP in Tron the movie. more lines of speech Maybe???


Where! How! Can you provide the link? I will be more than extatic to get more David Warner voice acting.

I can only salivate over the possibility of someone imitating him in the actual mod ... But if there will be volunteers to voice-act Irenicus - send me samples!

Again - I loved your ideas. More later.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#26 dorotea

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Posted 20 April 2003 - 06:54 PM

Posted Image

I was playing with NI yesterday trying to extract Jonny's portrait from the movies at the beginning and the end of SoA. I think i like this one the best. Most likely I will use it for the Longer Road.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#27 wizard of thay

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 09:43 AM

Doroetha I have just e-mailed you some stuff. (including that Edwin conflict you may remember I said I was going to do). but I just thought I would let you know a few more things that I found out
David was also the voice of Gowron (Klingon Honor Guard)
Morpheus (Fallout)
Some dud in one of the wing commanders.
The e-mail has a few sound clips I dug up (not very good quality i'm afraid)
But I am now intrigued by the idea of The long road.
And even more intrigued as to how it is going to be done. but I'll just wait until you reveal more and then seeing as Jon is my favourite NPC will offer 'constructive criticism'
But a personal request, can you put back in somewhere the Sarevok/ Irenicus conversation where Irenicus mocks sarevok and his stupid plans. it was one of my favourites and was cut from redemption.
The only gripe I have is that I am not that fond of the picture you are consideringas the default pic for jon. it seems too dark and not scared enough. I've always prefered the original.
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#28 dorotea

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:32 AM

The new mod forum should appear in the Forgotten Wars sometime this week. Neil promised to make one as soon as he has time. And I already have the first scene with Ellesime written. I am not sure if I would dare to post anything yet.

As for the portrait - it will be an optional feature, the one you can install or not. I already included it in the Redemption v1.1.2 - so you can check it in the game if you like. It looks much better as bmp and it is not nearly as dark as this jpg.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#29 dorotea

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:35 AM

Doroetha I have just e-mailed you some stuff. (including that Edwin conflict you may remember I said I was going to do). but I just thought I would let you know a few more things that I found out


Hmm, I wonder which email did you use. I shall see if I get it by tonight. As for Edwin conflict - I can only put it in if Laufey approves, it is her mod after all I am only doing the scripting part. The Longer Road will be solely mine though.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#30 Littiz

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 08:52 AM

Food for Littiz it seems!!!!! :lol: :lol:
I like your "goody" view on things, Dorotea!!

I tried Redemption, and I greatly appreciated your writing skills..
Yet, being absolutely fair to you, I didn't like a couple of things in the mod:

-Jon kept his Robe of Vecna, and his inconsistent spell selection even as a party member
-Probably the time to justify his "redemption" was too short (not your fault, of course)
-I don't like riddles :P

This time, I see the scope is greater...
thanx for working on this project!

P.S.: Imoen was *never* raped... Quitch says it's confirmed by Bioware.
She was "simply" tortured.
Besides, as I already pointed out in the same thread, it makes sense...
Imoen says you suffered the same things, and the PC is often a male :rolleyes:
Ever forward, my darling wind...

#31 dorotea

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 10:02 AM

Yet, being absolutely fair to you, I didn't like a couple of things in the mod:

-Jon kept his Robe of Vecna, and his inconsistent spell selection even as a party member
-Probably the time to justify his "redemption" was too short (not your fault, of course)
-I don't like riddles


Chuckle. As you said it yourself - the time was too short, and if you remember the mod I made it so that he was actually sort of 'tricked' into redemption by the cunning Seldarine Gods, as he never expected them to change the verdict and only wanted to mock them. Well, maybe a tiniest part of him hoped for something else and that tiniest part triggered the whole thing.

Keeping the Robe of Vecna etc was a shortcut, since I wanted to keep the scripting part relatively simple - I am no professional and unlike so many other uber-mods out there I do all the work myself every scrap of it ( well to be fair with redemption I had help with spelling and music files)

I also gave him all the contingencies and triggers I could think of since the final fight is pure hell.

If there will be any volunteers to help me script Jon right this time as a npc - you are welcome. I was hoping to find a compromise between the 2 cre files - the one from Ascension/Redemption and the one from the final SoA fight.

So if you have a list of spells and stats he 'should' have as a newly ressurrected npc from Hell - please share it with me either here, or via private email : ladydorotea@hotmail.com.

Riddles are optional as you may remember - for the weaklings like me who don't like 'improved' enemies and always play on 'normal' difficulty settings. Besides, I find the Bio concept of Demogorgon a little bit boring, since by the books he was supposed to be quite insane with this dual personality disorder. So I played it out.


P.S.: Imoen was *never* raped... Quitch says it's confirmed by Bioware.
She was "simply" tortured.
Besides, as I already pointed out in the same thread, it makes sense...
Imoen says you suffered the same things, and the PC is often a male


Imoen was raped in some early fanfics of mine which are not that good anyway. I always wanted to re-write the first part of 'that' story. I now firmly believe that Jonny could not rape anybody ( even dryads) simply because the curse made him impotent, quite literally. That was why 'the dryad experiment' never worked out.

You may ask how I am going to do the romance in such a case? Just wait and see!

;)
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#32 Littiz

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Posted 24 April 2003 - 06:42 AM

Forgive me Dorotea, I didn't want to seem picky! :(

-You've made the best you could do with the "available time", no doubt here.
I liked it indeed! Still I think that with the entire "ToB-time", you can do even better!

-I don't usually like riddles as a way of solving situations, but as we all know, BG2 is already
filled with riddles. Nothing inconsistent, here!

-I understand the problems in making a mod! In fact, I couldn't make one at all :lol:
Indeed, your choice was right.
Now though, I hope someone will be willing to help you with the coding!
Anyway, Jon as a NPC should simply become a "regular" sorc, am I right?
Now, as an opponent, he has numbered selected spells from an impossibile spellbook...
It should become a matter of choosing which spells he does know.
(I admit it would be cool to preserve that cloning spell he uses in Spellhold...)
I can try to help with such choices while the mod progresses!


Imoen was raped in some early fanfics of mine

You... you!!
:angry: :angry: :angry:
Ever forward, my darling wind...

#33 dorotea

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Posted 24 April 2003 - 07:36 AM

Anyway, Jon as a NPC should simply become a "regular" sorc, am I right?


Jon-Jon is a wizard not a sorcerer, as he is always bragging about all the hard work and research he was spending his life on. Sorcerers have their talent inborn and don't have to memorise their spells - rather like clerics and bards. That is why I really dislike this class. What is the fun in it anyway? You never know what you will get next morning. :)

Now, as an opponent, he has numbered selected spells from an impossibile spellbook...
It should become a matter of choosing which spells he does know.
(I admit it would be cool to preserve that cloning spell he uses in Spellhold...)
I can try to help with such choices while the mod progresses!


Sure, I would appreciate any help. Right now though I am hard at work writing the actual dialogs.

You... you!!


Oh, I will make sure to include a dialog between Imoen and Jonny clearing the issue - ie making sure she confirms he never touched her in 'that' way ...
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#34 -Lord E-

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 08:12 AM

[quote name='dorotea' date='Mar 22 2003, 04:40 AM']By the way - Sarry and Jon-Jon never even met each other. Jon only mentions that he discarded Sarevok as a potential soul donor because of his lowly intellect , or something to this account. (No offence to Sarevok lovers)[/quote]
Great news, Dorotea! I'll definitely play the mod.

I think the player should certainly be able to take both Jon and Sarry, one of the reasons being that there is a great potential for interesting banters, and it would also be very intrusive to force the player to make a decision like that. I personally would hate it, I definitely would want them both.

First there could be these amusing pissing contest banters about which one was better Evil Overlord, and later some more serious stuff.


By the way - Sarry and Jon-Jon never even met each other. Jon only mentions that he discarded Sarevok as a potential soul donor because of his lowly intellect , or something to this account. (No offence to Sarevok lovers)
[QUOTE]

LOL! As a rabid Sarry-fan I feel compelled to point out that Sarry's INT is 17 and he also sounds it :) I think Irenicus is either trying to piss him off on purpose, or referring to lack of common sense.

#35 dorotea

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 08:20 AM

Lotta!

You are back from your travels and even found the Forgotten Wars Forum!!!

These are great news. Thanks for the input.

First there could be these amusing pissing contest banters about which one was better Evil Overlord, and later some more serious stuff.


That was exactly what I had in mind. :) Evil overlord contest indeed.

LOL! As a rabid Sarry-fan I feel compelled to point out that Sarry's INT is 17 and he also sounds it  I think Irenicus is either trying to piss him off on purpose, or referring to lack of common sense.


Or he was playing his favorite game of deception and sarcastic riddles. I love the idea of these two together. I actually hope I can ask you to help me write these dialogs. :)

Cheers!
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#36 -Lord E-

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 08:26 AM

[quote name='dorotea' date='Apr 25 2003, 06:20 PM']Or he was playing his favorite game of deception and sarcastic riddles. I love the idea of these two together. I actually hope I can ask you to help me write these dialogs. :)

Cheers![/quote]
Or he was playing his favorite game of deception and sarcastic riddles. I love the idea of these two together. I actually hope I can ask you to help me write these dialogs. :)

Cheers![QUOTE]

Oh yes, seeing the two together will definitely be a reason enough for me to play the mod :) I personally really can't imagine a romance with Jonny, but sure, if you will write it I will give it a try. And I will be happy to help with dialogues as well.

#37 Laufey

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 12:07 PM



By the way - Sarry and Jon-Jon never even met each other. Jon only mentions that he discarded Sarevok as a potential soul donor because of his lowly intellect , or something to this account. (No offence to Sarevok lovers)

Great news, Dorotea! I'll definitely play the mod.

I think the player should certainly be able to take both Jon and Sarry, one of the reasons being that there is a great potential for interesting banters, and it would also be very intrusive to force the player to make a decision like that. I personally would hate it, I definitely would want them both.

First there could be these amusing pissing contest banters about which one was better Evil Overlord, and later some more serious stuff.

*nods*

I agree that the player should have the option to have both Sarevok and Irenicus in the party, I think there is the potential for some excellent interaction there. Also, it seems a shame to be forced to leave one of them in Hell.

#38 -Glamdring-

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 06:51 PM

Well, I'm new to these forums but I have recently sunk into this plot extremely quickly after playing your current mod and I loved every second of it. I have always wanted to "get to know" Joneleth a little better for two reasons: I just love elven mages, and two he almost seemed to have a good side when talking to Ellisime which made me always want to see what was really inside of him. The thought to actually play him through the entire ToB game is great and I just can't wait for more of Bitter Grey Ashes to come out. :) OK, now that I have gotten all the kudos out of my system I have an idea about Jon being in the party and his development. Even though having Jon in your group as a really low-level mage would still be cool, I would have a hard time choosing him over more experienced NPC's. I know of some of the old lich templates in which the lich always got an extra five spellbook openings for every level. Now, I'm not saying make Jon a god like the liches, but as he slowly get "better" and redeems himself he might be able to get some of his old powers back, say being able to cast two more 6th level spells (kinda like Solafein?s rewards if you have played his mod yet.) I think that there needs to be something special about Jon so that he is a tempting addition to the group even with all the awesome dialogue I?m sure he will say anyway. :) Also as just a side note, it might be cool to make him not be able to wear any elven stuff....(an idea, but it does collilde with him being able to wear the boots in Bitter Grey Ashes...so I don't know if you would want to do that or not.)

#39 dorotea

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 07:04 PM

Well, I'm new to these forums but I have recently sunk into this plot extremely quickly after playing your current mod and I loved every second of it.


Well, you made me a happy author for a week with such a comment. :) I am very glad you liked it.

I have always wanted to "get to know" Joneleth a little better for two reasons: I just love elven mages, and two he almost seemed to have a good side when talking to Ellisime which made me always want to see what was really inside of him.


I understand perfectly. I myself started from being uncomfortable with idea of punishing somebody who cannot understand his crimes because he is deprived of feeling with eternal damnation to the Abyss. As far as I remember my first pang of discomfort and certain commiseration came after I saw the final SoA movie. And then Dave Gaidar asked us to write Irenicuses story ... I was hooked. :) He is a facsinating personality indeed.

The thought to actually play him through the entire ToB game is great and I just can't wait for more of Bitter Grey Ashes to come out.


I hope I will finish this mod eventually - although now i seem to be a little stuck. The Edwin mod comes first, but i am writing some LR dialogs too. And I just posted next small installment of Ashes in the Attic serials forum. I try to do some every week.

I have an idea about Jon being in the party and his development. Even though having Jon in your group as a really low-level mage would still be cool, I would have a hard time choosing him over more experienced NPC's. I know of some of the old lich templates in which the lich always got an extra five spellbook openings for every level. Now, I'm not saying make Jon a god like the liches, but as he slowly get "better" and redeems himself he might be able to get some of his old powers back, say being able to cast two more 6th level spells (kinda like Solafein?s rewards if you have played his mod yet.) I think that there needs to be something special about Jon so that he is a tempting addition to the group even with all the awesome dialogue I?m sure he will say anyway.


Most likely Jon will come with all his 30 levels intact. And the ToB plot will proceed to the end, until he will be faced with his punishment and stripped of levels same way as it is done in Redemption. The story is going to be longer, and the dialogs more complicated but basic scheme will be the same. except this time it will be even more difficult to convince him to redeem himself, and he will try to corrupt you in his turn. He is devious. :) I am also thinking of including the exp cap removal feature with this mod so that Jon will not suck your xp, but will continue to level through ToB, and then will loose all these levels at the end.

Also as just a side note, it might be cool to make him not be able to wear any elven stuff....(an idea, but it does collilde with him being able to wear the boots in Bitter Grey Ashes...so I don't know if you would want to do that or not.)


Well, in the Ashes he is 'redeemed' in a sense and has soul. In the LR he will have to go without one until his final judgement and punishment. I can see why he would not want to put any elven gear on - it is a very cool idea! I shell try to see how can I do it without having to modify every item in the game! :)

Thanks for the ideas and encouragement. I HAVE to accelerate in writing the LR now.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#40 Andyr

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:55 AM

I've always thought those demons were Kobolds...

I thought they were Slayers..... Or fiends of some kind, anyway.
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