Jump to content


Photo

Silmarillion Overview


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#1 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 17 December 2007 - 06:02 PM

Some of you may have seen this before in private from me, but this is the idea in its semi-totality, since I have already got the basic framework working, going to indulge myself by posting this up here ^^;; feel free to comment!

================

QUENTA SILMARILLION

Basically this occurs in the First Age of Middle-Earth, where the mighty High Elves strove against Morgoth (aka Melkor), a God that walked the world, for 3 jewels called the Silmarils, crafted by Feanor the greatest craftsman that ever was, who captured the Light of the Creation of the world within his perfect creations.

To give a quick comparison to the 3rd Age of Middle-Earth - Sauron is essentially similar to Gandalf, both are of essence Spirits (called Maia), whereas Morgoth was a God that predated the creation of the world. The Balrog that Gandalf encountered in Moria is also considered a Spirit-level being, and Morgoth in his time, ruled over all the Balrogs there were, and moved them in regiments over battlefields. Morgoth himself also was the creator of Orcs, and later on, Werewolves, Wyrms, Wyrms made of pure Iron or Flame, and Winged Dragons.

The Elves were by no means the pale pathetic shadow of the 3rd Age. Despite Morgoth's power, the forefathers of Elrond besieged his realm Angband and the fortress of Thangorodrim, with relative ease, keeping it up for more than half of the First Age, almost 400 years.

The scenarios from this storyline that you may look out for as you visit the Chronicle at
http://mywebpages.co...-Chronology.htm
would be -
( additional detail from the actual Silmarillion itself )

The Kinslaying - how Feanor and his sons slew the Teleri at Aqualonde to gain their ships to sail to Middle-Earth in pursuit of Morgoth

The Death of Feanor - how the freshly landed Noldor (High Elves), barely establishing a foothold, and only less than 1/3 of them was there under the command of Feanor's house, devastated the orc army sent upon them in the dark. Feanor pursued almost halfway to Angband before a Balrog ambush took him and his bodyguards that had outstripped the rest, and he fought Gothmog Lord of Balrogs son of Morgoth to a standstill until his bodyguards were all dead and one of the Balrogs crept up behind him and sliced his helm and head open.

Rescue of Maedhros - Maedhros is captured by Morgoth and nailed by one hand to the cliff behind Morgoth's Fortress. Fingon sneaks in alone and rescues him after the King of Eagles lifts him up to where Maedhros was nailed by his hand. Fingon weeps for his friend but Maedhros bids him chop his right hand off, and from there they fly to safety on the King of Eagles' back. Henceforth, Maedhros renounces his position as High King of High Elves and gives it over to Fingolfin. Hard to implement in BG2

The Emergence of Glaurung - Not really focus, I think this would be optional if we run out of scenarios

The Glorious Battle - thus begins the Siege of Angband, which lasts for nearly 400 years, coordinated by Fingolfin

The Battle of Sudden Flame - ends the Siege of Angband. Fingolfin rides single handedly (through hosts of orcs occupying an area probably twice the size of Rohan, which is the approximate size of Ard-Galen) to the gates of Thangorodrim, and shouts a personal combat challenge to Morgoth. Morgoth emerges, and suffers 7 wounds at his hand, before he finally manages to kill Fingolfin the Valiant. Fingon his firstborn is made High King of the High Elves

Adventures of Barahir - a Ranger with 12 men wreak havoc in enemy territory. This would be optional

Tale of Beren and Luthien - non-war but MUST have :) the human Beren falls in loves with Luthien, the immortal daughter of Elven King Thingol, and departing together, they destroy Sauron the Lord of Werewolves Castle, where Finrod firstborn of Finarfin (the oldest brother of Galadriel) dies to defend Beren. After that they infiltrate Morgoth's castle and pry a Silmaril out of his iron crown. Beren's hand gets bitten off by the greatest of Werewolves, Carcharoth, who goes berserk and then is later hunted down and killed, and the Silmarillion retrieved. Beren is mortally wounded and dies, but Luthien visits the Halls of the Dead and manages to get him back. She chooses mortality of a human rather than the immortality of her heritage and they depart from Thingols' kingdom to live quietly.

The Battle of Unnumbered Tears - the betrayal of the elves by men. Morgoth's reign of power basically begins from here. Fingon is slain and Turgon his second brother is made High King of the High Elves

Turin the Blacksword - adventures of Turin from his days of raiding and how he slew his best friend Beleg who rescued him, successfully, from being enslaved by the orcs. He claims the broken Blacksword (Anglachel, also known as Gurthang) from Beleg and goes to Nargothrond

Fall of Nargothrond - Turin reforges the Blacksword, then he and Orodreth the king of Nargothrond the hidden and prospering hidden citadel of stone, belonging to the high elves, do battle against the invading army of orcs led by Glaurung Father of Dragons. They are defeated and Nargothrond is utterly destroyed. Turin survives and flees to Brethil where he marries his sister Nienor, who he has never met and who has lost her memory, including that of her name.

Death of Glaurung - Glaurung heads to Brethil, but before he can reach it he is slain by Turin who takes him by surprise while he is crossing a gorge, plunging the Blacksword into his underbelly. As he dies he lifts the spell cast on Turin's sister and she commits suicide knowing that she has married her brother. Turin, awakening to know the full tale, also kills himself on the tip of the Blacksword.

Tuor's Adventures - escaping enslavement by the men of Morgoth, he raids them ceaselessly before meeting Voronwe and speaking with Ulmo the God of the Seas and Waters, he recovers the armor and sword of king Turgon, now the High King of the High Elves. From there Voronwe guides him to the hidden city of Gondolin, last of the hidden elven bastions.

Death of Thingol - Thingol is given the Necklace of Dwarves and invites Dwarven smiths to forge it together with the Silmaril that Beren retrieved. The dwarves do it flawlessly, but refuse to return it. The smiths kill Thingol, and are in turn slain by their elven hosts.

First War of Doriath - dwarves attack Doriath kingdom of Thingol for the Silmaril and Necklace of Dwarves. they succeed but are destroyed in an ambush by an army of elves led by Beren, who claims the Silmaril. Optional.

Destruction of Doriath, the 2nd Kinslaying - Dior son of Beren, now holding the Silmaril after the death of Beren, is attacked by all 7 sons of Feanor. Dior is slain, while Celegorm Caranthir and Curufin of the sons of Feanor are killed as well, and Doriath is utterly destroyed. The Silmaril is borne by Dior's daughter Elwing to the Havens at the Mouth of Sirion

Fall of Gondolin -
The hidden city of Gondolin has its location betrayed by Maeglin and is assaulted by the fullest might of Morgoth. Morgoth fields wyrms of pure fire and wyrms of iron as orcish transports for the first time in this battle ; however, it is also in this battle that some Balrogs are finally destroyed ; Tuor and Ecthelion of the Fountain slay 9 of them, but they meet Gothmog son of Morgoth Lord of Balrogs, and in the battle Ecthelion is killed, but Gothmog also perishes. the King's Guard manages to kill a Wyrm of Flame by forcing it into the depths of the Fountain, but the rising scalding steam wipes out the remnants of the King's Guard. Turgon is slain, and Tuor and Idril with their son Earendil escape from the back. Glorfindel the Golden, as the rearguard of the entourage, slays a Balrog on the steep cliffs, but the dying demon drags him down into the chasm where he is killed. The remnants arrive at the Havens at the Mouth of Sirion

<< this battle is described in great detail in one of Tolkeins book and is very epic :) Must-have! It will likely be broken down into at least 4 or 5 maps. Possibly broken down into separate scenarios, for eg. the Ramparts of Gondolin, the Death of Gothmog, the Last Stand of the King's Guard, and Escape through the Encircling Hills.>>

<< Off the side note, readers of the original Tolkein know that in Fellowship of the Ring, it wasn't Arwen but a high elf named Glorfindel who went to battle the Black Riders at the Ford; his might was such that he could deal with more than one of them at one time armed with little more than a torch.

Tolkein states that elves are immortal and no two elves are given the same name. Plus all High Elves have dark hair except one ; Glorfindel the Golden alone had golden hair, which was the described hair color of the High Elf that warded the Black Riders off at the Ford. It would therefore make it likely that Glorfindel did not in fact perish at the Fall of Gondolin but survived to help escort the Ring bearer Frodo to eventually reach Rivendell.
In terms of seniority, he would probably be something like a bodyguard of Elrond's GrandMother, who is Idril wife of Tuor, but ultimately still considered of a "retainer" status rather than royalty like Elrond. >>

Destruction of the Havens - While Earendil is away sailing and seeking help from the Gods, the 4 remaining sons of Feanor attack the Havens at Sirion and destroy it. Amrod and Amras of the sons of Feanor are slain, and Elwing by then wife of Earendil, throws herself into the sea, but is transformed into a seabird by Ulmo to light Earendil's path to the land of the Gods.

War of Wrath - The Gods have assembled their armies and now invade Middle-Earth, largely dominated by Morgoth, led by Earendil on his (now flying) ship. Morgoth's army is wiped out, and his last hope of victory are the sudden emergence of a race of flying Dragons that manage to turn the tide for a while. However Earendil on his flying ship slays Ancalagon the Black, the greatest of the Flying Dragons, and most of the rest are slain. Morgoth is defeated and cast into the void

ZYRAEN'S NOTES

The mod begins at the Havens, where you are a commander of Earendil and the remnants of the peoples there. Earendil has not yet set sail, but the Havens is under frequent attacks by Morgoth's forces, and Earendil himself has taken ill, a condition unheard of among Elves. Elwing reveals that there is some disturbance in the timestream of the past, by an unknown force, and Earendil is channeling his powers to prevent its effects from washing over the Havens.

You are given some time to select your party members from among the most capable leaders of the Havens. You can also choose one out of her two sons, either Elrond or Elros, to take along in your journey to the past.

1) Eventually, after all major events have been visited and sorted out, you and your party return to "modern" Havens, only to find it over run and assaulted by the 4 remaining Sons of Feanor. Survive this Battle and rescue Elrond and Elros from the Sons of Feanor.

2) Welcome Earendil back and ensure that he survives to the end of the Battle. Fight alongside Earendil and the hosts of the Gods to destroy the enemy and slay all the Winged Dragons that come against you. Unlikely an easy battle

3) Cutscenes involving the source of the timestream disturbances. Finally your party is sent by the Gods to investigate and you confront Morgoth in the void, at the source of Time (Throne of Bhaal? lol). Defeat him (and his minions) to end the story.

JOINABLE NPCs

From the Havens (at most 3 of the following will join you)

You can only take one of the following, though you may choose neither.
Elrond - Male High Elf F/M- prince of the Havens.
Elros - Male High Elf F/C - prince of the Havens (edited from first post)

Khorin - Male Dwarf F/C - one of the leaders of the fugitives from the Dwarven kingdom Nogrod
Myravin - Female High Elf F/T - asst head of intelligence unit in Havens. Romanceable
Illuvi - Male Wood Elf Ranger/Cleric - one of the leaders from Doriath. trusted by Elwing. Romanceable.
Maric - Male Human Paladin - Skilled human leader in Havens
Kyra - Female Human Mage - Skilled human leader in Havens. Romanceable

From the Time-streams (picked up during scenarios)

Finarfin - Male High Elf Sorcerer - youngest brother of Feanor and Fingolfin, father of Finrod, Orodreth, Galadriel. also known as Finarfin the Wise. Has limited access to cleric/druid spells and bonus spell slots. He will join you if you show him proof that you are who you claim to be. He will become hostile if during any mission, you attack any members (including soldiers) from the house of Finarfin (ie troops of Finrod, Orodreth, Galadriel, etc) or Fingolfin (Fingon, Turgon, Idril, Tuor). Some events may affect him drastically. Finarfin is meant to be a slightly more powerful character than average NPC. Obtainable from the Kinslaying at Aqualonde.

Finrod - Male High Elf F/M - firstborn of Finarfin, founded the Elven Hidden City of Nargothrond, which was later ruled by his brother Orodreth. after being captured by Sauron, he and Beren and his squad were beaten, starved, and chained, with a werewolf sent to eat one of them everyday to reveal their identity. When only he and Beren were left, the next to be eaten was Beren, but Finrod burst his shackles and despite his weakened and injured state, fought armorless and weaponless against the Werewolf and killed it with his bare hands, before dying of his wounds. Romanceable if he joins you. Obtainable from the Tale of Beren and Luthien

Gharin - Male Dwarf Cleric - smith that forged the Necklace of Dwarves together with the Sylmarel. Advocated not killing Thingol, was trying to convince him to hand it over. He was slain together with the blacksmiths after Thingol was killed. Has extra spell slots. Obtainable from the Death of Thingol.

Beleg - Male High Elf Ranger - friend of Turin, one of the ranger captains of Doriath. known to Illuvi. has bonus points in some weapons. previously wielded the Blacksword. He can use the Blacksword if you get it off Turin's scenario. Romanceable if he joins you. Obtainable from the Adventures of Turin.

Turin - Male Human Berserker - slayer of Glaurung, by whom he was in turn slain by (indirectly). Arrogant and abrasive, angsty and aloof, yet he is also persuasive and cunning in his own right. Wields the Blacksword in combat. Romanceable but you won't be able to really have him. Meant to be Stronger than Normal NPC. Obtainable from the Death of Glaurung.

Imari - Female Wood Elf F/T - younger sister of Illuvi, who perished in the destruction of Doriath preventing the invading armies from reaching her older brother, who was moving to rescue Elwing. She remembers Illuvi as much more serious and overbearing than he was when he was with you. Romanceable if she joins you. Obtainable from the Destruction of Doriath.

Emaeva - Female High Elf M/T - assistant commander under Caranthir. she refused Caranthir's advances and without support, her outpost along the March of Maedhros was destroyed by an army of invaders . It is not known if she was slain or fled or was taken as a slave under Morgoth. Obtainable from the Battle of Sudden Flame, but if you rescue her you will probably not be able to complete the scenario.

LIST OF ROMANCEABLES

Male PC - Myravin, Kyra, Imari, (Emaeva?)
Female PC - Illuvi, Beleg, Finrod. (Maric?)

TIME STREAM NOTES

Every Scenario has certain critical objectives. These objectives, if failed, will cause everyone in the party to suffer XP and Level losses. However, a scenario can be abandoned before the objective fails, by leaving combat and summoning up your timeless slipstream (similar to Pocketplane). This way you can "fail" a map without incurring penalties.

If any party member in a Scenario meets himself or herself (ie comes within Detect Radius), the party member will fall over and immediately suffer Level and XP Loss. Being on the same map is fine.

Although scenarios may be run multiple times, only the LATEST attempt is considered. ie you may have completed a scenario many times, but if you attempt it one more time and fail it or do not complete it, it is considered FAILED.

All level losses are not reversible UNTIL you regain the XP that you have lost. Then the Level debuff will be removed. XP losses are permanent.

Most Characters will try to remain discreet or at least act similar to their old selves when facing people that they know from the past. However occasionally this may cause hostilities, due to the commander suspecting you are a trickery from Morgoth or other interesting effects.

Most weapons and armor will be fairly ordinary, though you can purchase just about anything you need from Aule's representative in the halls of Mandos.

Most Battlefield scenarios will not allow Resting, although Saving outside of combat is fine.

For "Legendary" +3 Weapons
eg. Ringil (sword of Fingolfin), The First Blade (sword of Feanor), Glamdring (sword of Turgon, later on sword of Gandalf), Anglachel aka Blacksword (sword of Beleg, later broken and reforged as sword of Turin)
Due to the ability to replay scenarios, logically speaking you could get a tonne of powerful +3 weapons by replaying the same stages. The game prevents this by spawning the weapon only ONCE, when the scenario is first completed to the extent the weapon shows up. Other than that it will not spawn again.
For eg the death of Feanor allows you to gain his weapon, but on your First Attempt it is unlikely you will be able to complete it. You'll have to prevent Feanor's early demise, crush the orcs, and when he pursues the Balrogs AND is slain by them, THEN the weapon will spawn. Trying to murder Feanor early on in the map will NOT spawn the weapon. However, ONCE Feanor is slain, you have to defeat whatever demons that's left to get the weapon ; if you choose to avoid the demons hanging around him, after a certain amount of time the elven host will arrive, causing the demons to leave and end the scenario (having completed it). henceforth the weapon will never spawn again.

ELVEN FACTIONS

These roughly describe the disposition of the different Elven Houses and their Commanders when encountered on the Battlefield, and in fact in general as well.

Feanor's House - suspicious and wary, but very courageous. distrustful but hate Morgoth and his armies with a burning passion
Fingolfin's House - courageous, friendly, needs reason to distrust but also reason to trust. most driven by tactical benefit; ie makes sense to invade.
Finarfin's House - very friendly but very cautious, unless all is on their side. most driven by need to aid someone.
Thingol's House - suspicious and withdrawn. cautious but courageous. prefers ranged combat over melee. will move to defend their own.
Beor's House - the house of Men loyal to cause of the Elves. very fierce and courageous, likely to charge into the assault and be killed. when in small bands, they are masters of guerilla warfare. can be likened to barbarians.

Edited by Zyraen, 21 December 2007 - 12:20 AM.

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#2 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6573 posts

Posted 17 December 2007 - 08:32 PM

Pretty cool. It'll be interesting to see if you can implement all this engine-wise. At first, it sounded like a sort of "mass battle mod, but now you've described it, it sounds more like a total conversion, which means a lot of work, obviously.

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#3 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 17 December 2007 - 08:57 PM

I would appreciate help writing some of the character romances ^^;; that's probably the toughest part for me.

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#4 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6573 posts

Posted 17 December 2007 - 09:10 PM

It would therefore make it likely that Glorfindel did not in fact perish at the Fall of Gondolin but survived to help escort the Ring bearer Frodo to eventually reach Rivendell.

The Glorfindel of the First Age mentioned in the Silmarillion is in fact the same Glorfindel that helps Frodo in the Third Age. I believe I read this in one of the various volumes, possibly one of the Book of Lost Tales or other posthumous works published by Christopher Tolkien.

This is significant because Glorfindel died in the First Age, and it refutes the premise that elves cannot be resurrected (something that PnP also took from Tolkien). It was possible, but extremely rare. There's some discussion of it here and probably elsewhere.

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#5 Choo Choo

Choo Choo

    AIR CONDITIONER GRILL

  • Modder
  • 3001 posts

Posted 17 December 2007 - 09:27 PM

I'll read this through more carefully later when I get home, but I only really noticed two things right now.

Maia - they aren't Spirits, of such.. they're of the same kind as the valar, but they're lesser. They were ainur, but lesser ainur. - Eh, scratch that, after long and hard thinking I can't come up with any better way of phrasing it. They're not Spirits as such, but I guess they're close enough. :P They do have physical forms, though.

And if I remember correctly, it's Alqualondë.

Otherwise, it looks good on a quick read-through!

Edited by Choo Choo, 17 December 2007 - 09:38 PM.

theacefes: You have to be realistic as well, you can't just be Swedish!


#6 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 20 December 2007 - 07:34 PM

I think this topic is a tad too long for most people, would you agree?

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#7 Solar's Harper

Solar's Harper

    Under Star & Sky.

  • Modder
  • 2758 posts

Posted 21 December 2007 - 12:08 AM

Depends how far you can go with reading with the time you're given. :)

Highlighting certain parts which are formatted in a chronological sequence also helps break down the possible eyestrain that text has caused.

ie:

The Emergence of Glaurung - Not really focus, I think this would be optional if we run out of scenarios

The Glorious Battle - thus begins the Siege of Angband


But anyway, the more information the better in my opinion, Zyraen, looks pretty good so far, and it sure will be interesting to see how this all pans out. :)

Yes, I guess the political turmoil interested side of me also pans out from this post. :lol:

The idea of the romances also intrigues me as well, although I will admit I'm a bit of a stranger to those names. <_<

Classic Adventures - a Total Conversion compilation dedicated to bringing many of the old and new PnP modules into the wonderfully dangerous world that is Baldur's Gate II.   Fancy link button to Downloads page.
 
CA Forum.  Bugs to be squashed, feedback to be welcomed!

Website at: http://classicadventuresmod.com/
~***~***~***~

When in doubt, lockpick a mudcrab!

Beware the nug conspiracy!


#8 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 21 December 2007 - 08:20 AM

Bolded stuff as per your recommendation, thanks :)

The names are strange to me as well. The NPCs from the original Silmarillion are Turin, Beleg, Finrod and Finarfin.
Elrond and Elros in the mod would be fictitious, since they would only be about 1-6 yrs old during the time of these events.

Out of all these 6 NPCs, only Finrod is properly romanceable (and there's competition there!), and even then I'll probably get tonnes of flames for it for taking liberty with a known (and famous) character.

The other romances, being original NPC concepts of mine, should be far easier to write for without worrying for too much criticisms.

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#9 Pandæmonium

Pandæmonium
  • Member
  • 101 posts

Posted 21 December 2007 - 09:02 AM

the premise that elves cannot be resurrected


They can and are. Elves are bound to the world and cannot leave it in body or spirit. When they 'die' their fea (souls) go to the Halls of Mandos where they wait (possibly a form of purgatory, particularly after the rebellion of Feanor and the Doom of Mandos) until they are born back into the world - memories, personality and all, apparently.

This happened particularly quickly with Glorfindel, and he was sent back to Middle Earth as a forerunner of the Maiar who would become the Istari.

You must, however, bear in midn that the idea of First Age Glorfindel and Third Age Glorfindel being the same person was something that came quite late in Tolkien's writing, and was something he never seemed to really settle on himself, just as with the Orcs being debased Elves - it's popularly accepted, but the man himself never really settled on a single answer.

Edited by Pandæmonium, 21 December 2007 - 09:02 AM.

The worst person ever.

#10 Eric P.

Eric P.

    Journeyman Modder

  • Member
  • 1178 posts

Donator

Posted 21 December 2007 - 01:01 PM

This is fascinating and fantastic, and very ambitious ;) I agree with the total-conversion comment; this could stand as a game unto itself! Maybe that's the point, hehe :) I highly encourage this behaviour, dearly look forward to the finished product, and will gladly offer any assistance within my ability.

Happy gaming,
Eric

Working and playing on a Mac Pro 6,1 running Mac OS X 10.13.6 High Sierra, and a Mac Pro 3,1 running Mac OS X 10.11.6 El Capitan.

~Buion na 'ell! I serve with joy! Your eyes and ears I shall be. Let us hunt together!~
- Erysseril Gwaethorien: a joinable, romanceable NPC mod for BGII - SoA/ToB, in sporadic development.

A female elf warrior of nature and a Bhaalspawn cross paths during their quests, joining forces to share adventure and companionship. Will they find more?


#11 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6573 posts

Posted 21 December 2007 - 06:55 PM

They can and are. Elves are bound to the world and cannot leave it in body or spirit. When they 'die' their fea (souls) go to the Halls of Mandos where they wait (possibly a form of purgatory, particularly after the rebellion of Feanor and the Doom of Mandos) until they are born back into the world - memories, personality and all, apparently.

There's some discussion (I think in one of the later Histories of Middle Earth or whatever) that they don't regain their memories when resurrected until they "surpass their former selves." In a way, this was more a sort of reincarnation, except their new bodies were identical to their old ones. In any case, it's still apparently quite rare - Glorfindel being the only "documented" case, and that only half-documented in Tolkien's own writings, as you say.

On the other hand, he established orcs as debased elves quite early in his writings - the direct influence of Melkor/Morgoth, who also corrupted the ents into trolls and the eagles into fell beasts. He could not create life of his own power, as the One (Eru/Iluvatar) could, so he had to settle for corrupting existing life. A reflection of Tolkien's own religious beliefs (God vs. the Devil etc.). Men were particularly easy to corrupt - he didn't even have to devise a new race for the fallen ones (they eventually became the Easterlings, Dark Numenoreans etc.).

Anyway, I don't want to devolve this into a Tolkien-geek debate. The original post is perhaps a bit long for the casual forum reader, as you say Zyraen, but I wouldn't mistake that for disinterest. Something of this scope almost needs its own forum.

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#12 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 06:35 PM

Forum will only come after I do at least one pre-release, which should hopefully, not be too far off from here. Meantime I would like to seek everyone's cooperation in starting separate topics regarding tolkienish debates (not least so I can participate in them, lol, but I can't in this topic since I'd prefer to keep the topic on track.)

Meantime, for those who wish to see some screen shots, you can look at
http://www.shsforums...pic=30554&st=19

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#13 Porthas

Porthas
  • Member
  • 22 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 11:07 PM

*mind is boggled* To say this covers a LOT of ground and is very ambitious is almost an understatement. The battles, especially the ones involving the Valar, were so huge that large chunks of continent were sunk underwater. The stories are epic in scope and cover many characters... almost all of them important in one way or another. The time span covers centuries... *mind is boggled*

Edited by Porthas, 23 December 2007 - 11:08 PM.

I have a very sexy learning disability.

#14 CrowLord

CrowLord
  • Member
  • 14 posts

Posted 25 December 2007 - 02:15 PM

this should be great when finished

I suggest having a read of The Children Of Hurin, if you havent already. It is a good book and adds a lot more detail to certain segments that you are wishing to incorporate. It mainly builds on characters rather than events though.

#15 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 25 December 2007 - 05:19 PM

My reference material that I intend to use, apart from Silmarillion itself
- Book of Unfinished Tales (including Narn I Hin Hurin)
- Lays of Beleriand (including Narn I Hin Hurin in poem form, and Lay of Leithian, though I do not intend to refer to the former much due to its... format)
- History of Middle-Earth Vol 2 (can't remember the name) - Fall of Gondolin

I don't recall History of Middle-Earth Vol 1 covering much of an important story, but I haven't touched it for a long time now.

BTW, what I do need in possibly copious amounts for this mod are writers, even if they have no access to reference material. If anyone is interested, please PM me, thanks ^^;; Oh and Map Makers, if any are available...

Off the side note, I don't think I'm going to do continent sinking stuff, due to engine limitations. But if it can be done, some evolving areas would be good (like Ard Galen transforming into Anfauglith, and the rivers of fire will probably be randomly firing across the width of the map using some invisible CREs)

Edited by Zyraen, 25 December 2007 - 05:21 PM.

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#16 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 25 December 2007 - 05:45 PM

Off the side note, anyone wants a separate topic with some dialogue posts of what I have already written regarding the main storyline? If so I will get it started.

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#17 Miloch

Miloch

    Barbarian

  • Modder
  • 6573 posts

Posted 01 January 2008 - 11:03 PM

Off the side note, I don't think I'm going to do continent sinking stuff, due to engine limitations. But if it can be done, some evolving areas would be good

It could probably be done, like in BG1 how Candlekeep becomes a different area after a chapter change. Which would work for your purposes - the end of an age being the end of a chapter or something like that. It would of course involve a lot of area map creation, which isn't easy even at its best.

Infinity Engine Contributions
Aurora * BG1 NPC * BG1 Fixpack * Haiass * Infinity Animations * Level 1 NPCs * P5Tweaks
PnP Free Action * Thrown Hammers * Unique Containers * BG:EE * BGII:EE * IWD:EE
================================================================
Player & Modder Resources
BAM Batcher * Creature Lister * Creature Checker * Creature Fixer * Tutu/BGT Area Map & List * Tutu Mod List
================================================================
"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle


#18 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 03 January 2008 - 01:20 AM

Apologies, I wanted to release the Sample Battlefield by yesterday (02 Jan 08) but it seems the Balrogs refuse to talk properly in sequence, so that will be delayed a little.

Meantime, a little screen shot of some fighting going on at the Graveyard you're supposed to guard in the Sample. I'll probably title it Sylmar - Elves vs Orcs Battle.
tempy.jpg

Thanks K'aeloree for converting it :)

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#19 Zyraen

Zyraen
  • Modder
  • 1401 posts

Posted 03 January 2008 - 11:19 PM

This probably doesn't mean anything to anyone, and in fact probably very little to most... but I have to say this...

Geez those Balrogs are TOUGH... I was fighting one with a party of 5 all firing on it using +5 weapons, and with me were the Warden and the Elven King Shade (EKS)... the Badly Injured Balrog started attacking the Uninjured EKS... then when the Balrog finally (at last!) died, the EKS was down to Near Death. Geez..

BTW, the EKS has over 600 Life I think in that testing round, and if he dies I lose the game ^^;; (Life levels of Balrogs and EKS vary according to your level when you join the map)

Off the side note, the Silmarillion won't have such extremely high levels for Balrogs or for the Heroes. It will be a lot more touch and go, much like what you will experience on the Sample Map while trying to keep the Warden alive.

kiyos.jpg____btlbn2.gif____kovaS.jpg
Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?
SoA Release - Overview / Download Links

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, XP caps, The Ub3r Reaver Kit, and much more...
Spellhold Gauntlet - more than just a Spellhold-Be-Gone
Hidden Kits - hidden dual-classed kits with a twist for progression


#20 Pandæmonium

Pandæmonium
  • Member
  • 101 posts

Posted 13 January 2008 - 05:22 AM

On the other hand, he established orcs as debased elves quite early in his writings - the direct influence of Melkor/Morgoth, who also corrupted the ents into trolls and the eagles into fell beasts. He could not create life of his own power, as the One (Eru/Iluvatar) could, so he had to settle for corrupting existing life. A reflection of Tolkien's own religious beliefs (God vs. the Devil etc.). Men were particularly easy to corrupt - he didn't even have to devise a new race for the fallen ones (they eventually became the Easterlings, Dark Numenoreans etc.).



Completely forgot about this topic, but may I direct your attention to HoME - Morgoth's Ring:

"This then , as it may appear, was my fathers final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkors thought' it was Sauron who,during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his master when he returned
But as always it is not quite so simple. Accomanying one copy of the typescript of this essay are some pages in manuscript for which my father used the blank reverse sides of papers provided by the publishers dated 10 November 1969. These pages carry two notes on the 'Orcs' essay: one, discussing the spelling of the word orc, is given on p.422 the other is a note arising from something in the essay which is not indicated, but which is obviously the passage on p.417 discussing the puppet-like nature inevitable in the creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intended to stand in relation to the words' But the Orcs were not of this kind'."

I will also say that Morgoth did [b]not[/i] make trolls from ents - they were made in mockery, and had numerous properties not found in Ents - turning to stone in sunlight being the primary.
There is another particularly elegant theory which says that all evil forms of life come from the corruption which Melkor brought to the music. As Tolkien writes himself:

"“Out of the discords of the Music - sc. Not directly out of either of the themes, Eru’s or Melkor’s, but of their dissonance with regard to one another - evil things appeared in Arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of Melkor; they were not ‘his children’; and therefore, since all evil hates, hated him too. The progeniture of things was corrupted. Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs, the Eldar believed Morgoth had actually ‘bred’ them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.” (Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed, Text VII)"

It's important to note some particular words here - "the Eldar believed" You can also find a parallel with this in Treebeard, of whom Tokien wrote in a letter "He is a character in my story and does not know everything" or words to that effect.
I have no idea were you read that Manwe's Eagles becmae Fell Beasts, I've never seen that alluded to in HoME, but I've not read every volume.
The worst person ever.