39 replies to this topic

[Kulyok]

If you have two Xans in the same spot, then you have installed two components/mods that were not meant to be installed at the same time. The author has a quick response "you should not install BGT Tweaks component X with BG2 Xan" and need spend no more time searching for answers, and the user is faced with the obvious mistake and can do a forum search for the answer.

Wrong. "Two Xans in the same place" can equal to many things, from a not-so-uncommon reinstallation issue to yet *another* mod using this spot to a rare random glitch in an "incrementing Xan-spawning variable" operation to an issue with a new install and an old save game to a new Xan version with a different variable.

And, in case of another mod, these problems will multiply. I cannot be debugging someone else's problem, physically: not only it is counterproductive, but, most importantly, I can only address issues in my mods.

"Two Xans in the same place" is not a strictly Big World Project-related issue(BWP folks are innocent here), it's a potential issue for any user who uses Xan andBGT tweaks together. And, yes, I can picture dozens of users, who will reach BG2 and say "Hmm, shall I go to the (say, Bridge District) and pick Xan from BG1, with his stats and items, or shall I go to the Government District, pick Kulyok's Xan and play that quest with the stolen ring?" So, both components, Xan from BGT tweaks and Kulyok's Xan(and Talon's Xan in the Gate District!) _DO_ have a right to be installed in the same game.

Bottom line. I do prefer this picture: Kulyok's Xan stands at the entrance to Government district, if there's a problem with Xan there, Kulyok debugs this problem. If Xan stands elsewhere, it's another mod and another author's problem. This way, everyone's happy.

@A64: any place that is not Government District is fine with me. I do appreciate your cooperation.

[Jarno Mikkola]

(2) Kulyok's Xan mod is usually installed after BGT, so it'll be troublesome for BGTTweaks to 'forward-check' for another mod.

But if you look at here, or the Big World Project, the BGT Tweaks needs to be installed after RE, RR and just before all the other (rule)Tweak packs. So there is no problem on checking for Xan, as it's already installed. *Insert harsh words.*

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 24 June 2008 - 03:27 AM.

[cmorgan]

Wrong. "Two Xans in the same place" can equal to many things, from a not-so-uncommon reinstallation issue to yet *another* mod using this spot to a rare random glitch in an "incrementing Xan-spawning variable" operation to an issue with a new install and an old save game to a new Xan version with a different variable.

Logical. Though if you open the .cre file (or even talk to them in-game) the difference will be obvious. But the last case, where new xan version with different variable and old savegame is future-proofing for the mod, so the "where did you pick Xan up" question makes it easier for author support.

"Two Xans in the same place" is not a strictly Big World Project-related issue(BWP folks are innocent here), it's a potential issue for any user who uses Xan andBGT tweaks together. And, yes, I can picture dozens of users, who will reach BG2 and say "Hmm, shall I go to the (say, Bridge District) and pick Xan from BG1, with his stats and items, or shall I go to the Government District, pick Kulyok's Xan and play that quest with the stolen ring?" So, both components, Xan from BGT tweaks and Kulyok's Xan(and Talon's Xan in the Gate District!) _DO_ have a right to be installed in the same game.

Groundbreaking.

Bottom line. I do prefer this picture: Kulyok's Xan stands at the entrance to Government district, if there's a problem with Xan there, Kulyok debugs this problem. If Xan stands elsewhere, it's another mod and another author's problem. This way, everyone's happy.

Easy enough. Alternate logical points for BGT Tweaks insertion:

Copper Coronet (overloaded, not recommended)
Promenade (overloaded, but good for players who want to continue with their party intact)
Graveyard (relatively overloaded)
Sorcerous Sundries (inside or outside)

[Azazello]

(2) Kulyok's Xan mod is usually installed after BGT, so it'll be troublesome for BGTTweaks to 'forward-check' for another mod.

But if you look at here, or the Big World Project, the BGT Tweaks needs to be installed after RE, RR and just before all the other (rule)Tweak packs. So there is no problem on checking for Xan, as it's already installed. *Insert harsh words.*

No need for *Insert harsh words.*

Why is everybody so angry this week?

First, could you please tell us where that link comes from. I think it's erebusant's and it doesn't require that BGTTweaks go after BG2-Xan. In fact, that list doesn't even have BG2-Xan in it!

It is very likely that a typical install order will be BGT/other-stuff/BGTTweaks/more-stuff/BG2-Xan/ even-more-stuff. If BWP has a requirement for a different order, I would like to read about it and know why that is.

Can someone please show us where it is required for BG2-Xan to be installed before BGTTweaks? That was the point of my earlier post.

[Azazello]

I don't understand why people are saying that the two mods are imcompatible, Xan-wise. Does anyone have proof, or are we letting personal biases once again come into play?

With the two mods you get two different Xans; until I see proof otherwise, they both work. Hell, if some players want to have two Xans in their party, go nuts.

Like I wrote earlier, I think BG1-Xan should be moved. But let players be forewarned to RTFM.
Can we all get along to re-emphasize this in the perspective ReadMes and on the forums when we're advising players?
Can Kulyok be encouraged to bite her tongue on her hatred of mega-installs and just tell players "Look, the mods are not meant to be installed together -- end-of-story." ??

Let's move BG1-Xan. Most of the other NPCs are near Area entrances/exits, or near major plot doorways. (Kivan is teeny bit hidden in the Umar Hills) Since Xan is such a high profile NPC, and he's a friendly face from BG1, and we want to give players a chance to pick him up early, let's put him in the Promenade or Adventurers' Mart.

Opinions?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Can someone please show us where it is required for BG2-Xan to be installed before BGTTweaks? That was the point of my earlier post.

Here is the general list of installation(generally, as there are few exceptions):
Categories;
Games, patches, 1 start...
*Over writers*
Fix pack (generally the G3 BG2 Fixpack, but there are others)
Audiovisual Miscellany
Baldur's Gate Trilogy (and bg1 quest mods etc.)
Kit Mods
NPC Mods (including Xan mod)
NPC-Related Mods
Quest-Related Mods
Rules and Tweaks (-packs, as in BGT Tweaks Pack)
Script-Related Mods
Spell-Related Mods
Stores and Items
Tactical Challenges
World map mode
+custom adjustables (GUI, then Widescreen Mod)
And then there is the BG1 screwer's that need to be installed later... after you have started...

Here's a nice link for all the categories.
Of course the BWP is better guide...

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 24 June 2008 - 02:46 PM.

[Leomar]

Now, like BWP works:

BWP is build up of the following mods:

- BG2 Fixpack
- BGT
- Worldmap

These mods are the main ones for our megamod. All installation issues including these three mods.

We try to find a logical way to install all the mods to get the best use of it in a big BG World.
Therefore we have the following installation order:

- Fixpacks
- Big BG2 Mods
- BGT (BGT makes changes for the big BG2 Mods, thats why we recommend that order, but we know you can install the big BG2 mods after BGT, too.)
- Big BG1 Mods

With this you have a huge modded BG.

After that comes the mods with the BG1 content.
- Then the tactical mods for BG1 like SCSI.

Now, we have BG1 fully modded in this megamod and we can include the mods with the BG2 content.
- Quest, NPCs and other similar mods were installed.

We think, like for BG1, that it is important to install at first the content of all the mods and at last you make changes for the whole megamod with tacticals and tweaks, so the whole game get the effects of it. We want that a megamod is a whole thing.

Therefore here the short discription of an overview of our installation order:
- BG2 Fixpack
- BGT with the big Mods
- BG1 content
- BG1 tactical mods
- BG2 content
- BG2 tactical mods
- Tweak Packs
- Worldmap

Like you see, we recommend to install BG2 Tactical mods and for all tweak mods at the end of the installation, to get the affects throughout the game.

All sound good, but not for each mod. We have some mods, you can't install in the correct category. e.g. we can't install Gavin NPC for BG1 in the category "BG1 content", because if you do that, you can't install Edwin and Tsujatha without errors. Therefore we must find a solution and now, you must install it after these mods, also in the category "BG2 content". Not the best way, but a way it works. The same is for BG2 mods they are overwriting files and not patching them. Some of these BG2 mods, we must moved in the BG1 category to get these mods installed correctly. Not fine, but it works for the whole process.

Like you see it is not easy to find the correct installation order in such a megamod, but with these categories it is a little bit easier and it make more sense for us.

Back to topic:
So we install Kulyok's Xan in the category "BG2 Content", also before the tweak mods.

Sorry for my response of the two Xan's, but it was only an idea/question if this is an option for you.

If you have comments or questions, please ask.

Greetings Leomar

Edited by Leomar, 24 June 2008 - 08:58 PM.

[Kulyok]

I don't understand why people are saying that the two mods are imcompatible, Xan-wise. Does anyone have proof, or are we letting personal biases once again come into play?

With the two mods you get two different Xans; until I see proof otherwise, they both work. Hell, if some players want to have two Xans in their party, go nuts.

They are fully compatible, and they can be installed together, as long as BGT Tweaks Xan spawns somewhere different, and that's what I've been saying all along. I hope it is clear enough.



I will no longer answer posts written in this manner, however:

Can Kulyok be encouraged to bite her tongue

If any further issues with Xan NPC for BG2 or my other mods arise, I'll be happy to address them - just let me know on Xan's forums

[Ascension64]

@A64: any place that is not Government District is fine with me. I do appreciate your cooperation.

No problem. It's better to sort this one for the players to avoid confusion.

I wonder if this problem with the two Xans is related to a phrase that I removed from the readme of BGTTweak (http://www.shsforums...showtopic=31593).
I could add a line under that component that says something like:

While this component works with the BG2 Xan NPC modification, you may experience a consistency error if you use this component with BG2 Xan NPC.

And then we can chuck Xan in the slums for all his danse macabre is worth.

TBH, I've never supported two mods that do the same thing, becuase it forces people to choose betweeen them. That's why I hate this issue. Can BGT Tweak not import Xan if BG2 Xan NPC is installed prior to it? Easily possible, but will people like it? Do they want really want double death at their doorstep?

Comments?

Edited by Ascension64, 25 June 2008 - 01:51 AM.

[melkor_morgoth75]

TBH, I've never supported two mods that do the same thing, becuase it forces people to choose betweeen them. That's why I hate this issue. Can BGT Tweak not import Xan if BG2 Xan NPC is installed prior to it? Easily possible, but will people like it? Do they want really want double death at their doorstep?

Comments?

My 2 cents about it.

First, i'd have liked to see BG2 Xan "continuos" (so the same Xan in BG2 as BG1) ... but i know Kulyok doesn't agree to support that, it's her mod so it's fair enough for me.
Let's say that if i have BG2 Xan mod installed honestly i won't never have the "continuos/no speeches" Xan in Bg2 part of the game for sure. If i install the mod, it's correct to assume that i want to play with that Xan by Kulyok. So the best for me would be a check to see if Xan for Bg2 mod is installed, if it's true skip Xan component in Bg2 tweaks ;-) In my install i just did comment out the lines for Xan in BGT tweaks' tp2.

mm75

Edited by melkor_morgoth75, 25 June 2008 - 02:49 AM.

[Hoppy]

TBH, I've never supported two mods that do the same thing, becuase it forces people to choose betweeen them. That's why I hate this issue. Can BGT Tweak not import Xan if BG2 Xan NPC is installed prior to it? Easily possible, but will people like it? Do they want really want double death at their doorstep?

Comments?

For what it is worth, it is about "conceptual incompatibility" rather than technical. It was said at first that the two were incompatible and then left out and now Kulyok's forum is getting flooded with calls about seeing double Xan's. The read me could warn the player that two Xans will be the result somewhere in the game if a new starting point is chosen for the imported Xan..

At least they aren't seeing "seven" Xan's yet . When this issue was first brought up I stopped installing BGTTweaks with the extra NPC mods. It made sense to me.

http://www.shsforums...&...st&p=373918

Kulyok should have said even if seven Xan's were brought in, just don't put them in the same place.

I particularly liked MM75's idea after Kulyok's linked statement. I like choices.

For BWP installs, the results are how to get everything "mechanically compatible" and installed. That is why I don't follow the guide and I leave out mods that will not make sense to me.

Edited by Hoppy, 25 June 2008 - 11:15 AM.

[Azazello]

I too want BG2-Xan to be BGT-continuous. I think I asked about this when the mod was first introduced. Kulyok doesn't want it to be, and I respect that. What I don't know, is if she will endorse another mod to allow that continuity. The impression always seemed 'No'.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I too want BG2-Xan to be BGT-continuous. I think I asked about this when the mod was first introduced. Kulyok doesn't want it to be, and I respect that. What I don't know, is if she will endorse another mod to allow that continuity. The impression always seemed 'No'.

Ah, but as the thing there is, there was nothing to continue from, as the char in BG was very light build... as all the chars were, at the time.

Now, as Kulyok might not want to continue from the BG1NPC mods, it's understandable, checking old variables, that might not need to be there(thinking here on creativity and the BGTutu, not BGT) etc.

Although, we would all be quite happy if there would be a nice middle road that allows everything be nice and dandy, but we don't live in a dream world, but in somebody else's nightmare.
Small edit, to make it bit more clear, I hope.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 25 June 2008 - 11:30 PM.

[Leomar]

In the BGT Tweaks readme you find the following:

18. Import all NPCs into Shadow of Amn: If any stock Baldur's Gate NPC is in the party and is not dead, then they will be imported into Shadows of Amn. Simple as that. However, some of them you will have to find... (this component is incompatible with The Darkest Day, Tortured Souls, Never Ending Journey, and Xan NPC).

About Xan you have spoken. Why is this component incompatible with TDD, TS and NeJ? Does the same problem with double characters exist here?

Greetings Leomar

[Hoppy]

In the BGT Tweaks readme you find the following:

18. Import all NPCs into Shadow of Amn: If any stock Baldur's Gate NPC is in the party and is not dead, then they will be imported into Shadows of Amn. Simple as that. However, some of them you will have to find... (this component is incompatible with The Darkest Day, Tortured Souls, Never Ending Journey, and Xan NPC).

About Xan you have spoken. Why is this component incompatible with TDD, TS and NeJ? Does the same problem with double characters exist here?

Greetings Leomar

Actually with TDD (and TS ossibly with Coran problems) the NPC's do not show up even without installing tweaks. They need Globals of 0 to set like "KAGAIN", "GLOBAL", 0 which does not happen in BG2 transition. It may be BGT or BG1 Unfinished Business and I have noticed that Kagain would have a global consisting of many digits as in a quest or dialog timer. That is why I am thinking of TDD not compatible with BGT or UB unless new code is added which I did before and do not feel like doing again.

I could never get Xzar to raise Monty so I quit. Hopefully it will at least work from a new BG2 starting game. If not, then there is a whole new incompatibility .

Edited by Hoppy, 25 June 2008 - 10:38 PM.

[melkor_morgoth75]

Ah, but as the thing there is, there was nothing to continue from, as the char in BG was very light build... as all the chars were, at the time.

Oh well, with BG1 NPC projects all BG1 chars are not light build anymore honestly ;-) So, having continuity would have been really great,

mm75

Edited by melkor_morgoth75, 25 June 2008 - 10:49 PM.

[Azazello]

Although, we would all be quite happy if there would be a nice middle road that allows everything be nice and dandy, but we don't live in a dream world, but in somebody else's nightmare.

This is so true.

In my install list I have continuity of NPCs but admittedly I've had to 'nudge ' the code to get them to act properly, for example as Hoppy wrote, making Montaron appear via TDD. I just thought that was due to the uniqueness of my installation. A big thanks to BG1NPC and BGTTweaks, the NPCs still have their BG1 dialogues and I was even romancing Branwen into BG2. Conceptually the BG1 triggers are still in-effect, so no BG1-NPC need be silent. So whatever is preventing the globals and triggers from working properly and automatically, just means we all have another go-around of mega-testing to hunt out the problems.

[Ascension64]

In the BGT Tweaks readme you find the following:

18. Import all NPCs into Shadow of Amn: If any stock Baldur's Gate NPC is in the party and is not dead, then they will be imported into Shadows of Amn. Simple as that. However, some of them you will have to find... (this component is incompatible with The Darkest Day, Tortured Souls, Never Ending Journey, and Xan NPC).

About Xan you have spoken. Why is this component incompatible with TDD, TS and NeJ? Does the same problem with double characters exist here?

Greetings Leomar

The way that the component is programmed, it will actually do nothing to TDD, TS, and NeJ imported characters because the REPLACE_TEXTUALLY source text is changed by these mods BGT and these mods when installed together.

[Chevalier]

I know the TDD Kivan shows up at the right place with a BGT install.

[Hoppy]

I know the TDD Kivan shows up at the right place with a BGT install.

Chev, does that include if you had Kivan in your party in BG1? Usually my troubles exist when I had them in party previously so they have big Globals set and TDD uses the simple GLOBAL 0 to spawn them as I usually use TDD's Kagain a lot in BG2 and he won't be there at the City Gate. Even that is not much of a problem but I always like to use Xzar and Monty for the TDD and can't get that scene to work. Does it work for you?