105 replies to this topic

[Icendoan]

If this machine can learn, from one showing, forever, the INT needs to be raised. I define Intelligence as ability to learn, and that sort of learning makes it far more intelligent than a lot of humans.

Machines would think more like Irenicus; capable of mimicking emotion, but cannot really know about it. It would get very confused over things like phobia and irrational hatred, as machines are built on logic. Wisdom is defined as 'Common Sense', which machines do NOT have. They will take the most efficient method of doing something that gets them to a definable aim, regardless of whether, in the future, this affects later options.

Overall, I like the character and idea.

Icen

[Lykainon]

I think it depends how you view wisdom. IMO, it's more about intuition and instinct than thought patterns - and intuition and instinct are two things that a machine could never have. I guess you could sidestep that with the whole 'but she's part HUMAN! ' thing, but that's been done before, I think.

It depends... a machine capable of self-awareness and independent thought (which I assume Hisyune is) could probably be capable of intuition and instinct as well. Both are, after all, our subconsious trying to tell us what to do based on previous experience. A machine with a subconscious and a brain working roughly in the same way as a human one should have instincts or something similar.

I guess I'm kinda meh about this project because the whole 'cute female robot who is very advanced and has human characteristics' thing has been done to death. Chobits. The Sarah Connor Chronicles.

That could easily be fixed, just change the portrait to a picture of Summer Glau. There can never be too many cute female robots who are very advanced and have human characteristics played by Summer Glau. Ever.

[Choo Choo]

I doubt a construct of any kind could have a subconscious, intuition and most certainly not instincts. They might be able to MIMICK these things, but that's not the same thing. Self-awareness, however, yes, that's possible. "I think, therefore I am."

[Lykainon]

I doubt a construct of any kind could have a subconscious, intuition and most certainly not instincts. They might be able to MIMICK these things, but that's not the same thing. Self-awareness, however, yes, that's possible. "I think, therefore I am."

But since a subconsciousness is pretty much the sum of the parts of my brain I'm not using (long-term memories and such) it seems like a brain with a functioning memory and advanced enough to be self-aware should pretty much automatically gain a subconscious. The only alternative the way I see it would be to access all memories continuously (or at least have instant access to everything) which is somewhat similar to the way some idiot savants work and thus not very effective (although there would likely be some perks such as a photographic memory).

Now, I suppose it would be possible to have a brain where the not actively used parts are completely inactive (as opposed to lurking around as they do in humans) and doesn't generate intuition and instincts. I don't see any reason why this should be the case with an artificial brain this advanced though.

Also, I'm curious to what difference there would be between actual instincts and mimicked instincts. If human A and construct B both are about to eat some fruits that they both have eaten before and both gotten sick from before, is there any difference between A's instincts telling him "Don't eat that fruit" and B's mimicked instincts telling him exactly the same thing?

[Icendoan]

Mimicked instincts have to be thought about in order to mimic it properly, so they are not instincts.

Icen

[Lykainon]

Mimicked instincts have to be thought about in order to mimic it properly, so they are not instincts.

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought of mimick as "their program simulate the experience" rather then "they pretend to have the experience." In that case, I agree, mimicking isn't like the real thing. I still think they should be able to simulate instincts in a useful manner though.

[Icendoan]

Simulation is the same as pretending, I think, except simulation attempts to trick everyone else, while pretending usually is done in one person's imagination.

Icen

[Lykainon]

Simulation is the same as pretending, I think, except simulation attempts to trick everyone else, while pretending usually is done in one person's imagination.

Hmm... perhaps you're right. I'll use the word "emulate" instead, it should fit better anyway. In fact, video game emulators for computers would make a decent metaphore. While they might not work exactly the same the original Nintendo or whatever, the end result is the same. You can play the game.

[witya]

Hmm... perhaps you're right. I'll use the word "emulate" instead, it should fit better anyway. In fact, video game emulators for computers would make a decent metaphore. While they might not work exactly the same the original Nintendo or whatever, the end result is the same. You can play the game.

No offense, but it doesn't matter how you twist it. Instinct cannot be emulated, simulated, or anything, because if you do, then it's not instinct anymore, but logical thinking. The machine copies or emulates/simulates, therefore the way it acts is not instinctive anymore. Instinct is more like an inner trait of a living being, that does not involve thinking.

[Lykainon]

No offense, but it doesn't matter how you twist it. Instinct cannot be emulated, simulated, or anything, because if you do, then it's not instinct anymore, but logical thinking. The machine copies or emulates/simulates, therefore the way it acts is not instinctive anymore. Instinct is more like an inner trait of a living being, that does not involve thinking.

Sure it can, at least as long as we're talking about machinery advanced enough (and this one even involves magic). I'll go over it again; instincts are hints from your subconscious, your subconscious is the sum of your currently not accessed thoughts and memories. As long as the machine has a subconscious (and a self-aware machine with humanoid-level memory ought to have one) instincts should be part of the deal. Instincts are pretty much logical thinking, only on a subconscious instead of conscious level.

After all, the brain basically is a machine, although one with very fancy programming and hard-ware.

Edited by Lykainon, 27 November 2008 - 05:35 PM.

[Thanatos.]

True. Besides, if you can romance Hisyune, then how COULDN'T she be able to think logically?

This whole debate is confusing me, regardless.

[Lykainon]

True. Besides, if you can romance Hisyune, then how COULDN'T she be able to think logically?

Have you actually found a way to apply logic thought to romance? Dude... teach me.

[witya]

Yep, it's confusing a bit, but it's interesting. ^^

Everything a machine does is because it was "programmed" to do it. Everything. Even decision making is a very complicated "program". So a machine can't have a subconscious this way, we could say, that it has routines running in the background, or something like that. But that is only an emulation, as you say, and it's not real, as it's part of the "programming".

We are talking about a similar thing though, or at least, the result is the same, but I think there is a difference between them. The first one is a natural instinct, the other one is a "code" working in the background and it just doesn't feel like a "real" instinct.

However, if magic is involved, things can change and there can be a "natural" instinct inside a machine, but I don't consider that as part of the machinery anymore, it feels like something more. Maybe magic gave the machine something like a soul or spirit? Btw, maybe this could be the base of a good conversation with the PC, imo. ^^

[Lykainon]

Everything a machine does is because it was "programmed" to do it. Everything. Even decision making is a very complicated "program". So a machine can't have a subconscious this way, we could say, that it has routines running in the background, or something like that. But that is only an emulation, as you say, and it's not real, as it's part of the "programming".

True. But like I said, our instincts are part of our "programming" as well. Our subconscious is routines running in the background. Everything might not be exact parallels, but they're equal.

We are talking about a similar thing though, or at least, the result is the same, but I think there is a difference between them. The first one is a natural instinct, the other one is a "code" working in the background and it just doesn't feel like a "real" instinct.

No, the difference is the first one is biological coding while the other one is artificial coding. And, out of curiosity, how could you possibly know what it feels like?

However, if magic is involved, things can change and there can be a "natural" instinct inside a machine, but I don't consider that as part of the machinery anymore, it feels like something more.

Why are you so obsessed with what's "natural"? Just because something is created by artificial means doesn't mean it's any less real or similar to the "original". Remember that cloned sheep, Dolly? Most certainly not a "natural" sheep and clearly created by artificial means. But just as real as a normal sheep. Granted, the metaphor isn't perfect but I'm hoping you'll get my point.

Maybe magic gave the machine something like a soul or spirit? Btw, maybe this could be the base of a good conversation with the PC, imo. ^^

Agreed. If this mod is aiming for a philosophical flavor I'm sure some interesting stuff could come from this discussion. As for magic giving it a soul or spirit... I feel it would rob the issue of some interesting questions. In my opinion, a machine that act somewhat human and may or may not have things like free will, a soul or instincts is a whole lot more interesting then a construct with a magically added soul, that would basically be a human in a robot body and stuff like free will would be unquestionable.

But hey, those are just my opinions. The mod has potential to be pretty good either way (although I naturally feel it would be better with my approach. )

[witya]

No, the difference is the first one is biological coding while the other one is artificial coding. And, out of curiosity, how could you possibly know what it feels like?

Yes, we can view it this way. But still, the artificial is not natural, therefore it cannot be called an instinct, because it's not. It's a program code. It does the same thing, but the approach is different.

Sometimes you just can't convince someone, like me in this case. ^^ Though I do understand your point. To the question: no, I don't know what it feels like. I said how it feels to me.

Why are you so obsessed with what's "natural"? Just because something is created by artificial means doesn't mean it's any less real or similar to the "original". Remember that cloned sheep, Dolly? Most certainly not a "natural" sheep and clearly created by artificial means. But just as real as a normal sheep. Granted, the metaphor isn't perfect but I'm hoping you'll get my point.

Right, it's not a good one. That's actually a copy of a sheep, while we are talking about a something implemented to a machine and as such, it's not the same. It's just an imitation, though it is real and existent. But it is not "real" instinct.

Agreed. If this mod is aiming for a philosophical flavor I'm sure some interesting stuff could come from this discussion. As for magic giving it a soul or spirit... I feel it would rob the issue of some interesting questions. In my opinion, a machine that act somewhat human and may or may not have things like free will, a soul or instincts is a whole lot more interesting then a construct with a magically added soul, that would basically be a human in a robot body and stuff like free will would be unquestionable.

But hey, those are just my opinions. The mod has potential to be pretty good either way (although I naturally feel it would be better with my approach. )

Yes, it should not have a soul or spirit, that would ruin it totally.

[Azkyroth]

IMO, it's more about intuition and instinct than thought patterns - and intuition and instinct are two things that a machine could never have. I guess you could sidestep that with the whole 'but she's part HUMAN! ' thing, but that's been done before, I think.

Wisdom is defined as 'Common Sense', which machines do NOT have.

I doubt a construct of any kind could have a subconscious, intuition and most certainly not instincts. They might be able to MIMICK these things, but that's not the same thing. Self-awareness, however, yes, that's possible. "I think, therefore I am."

No offense, but it doesn't matter how you twist it. Instinct cannot be emulated, simulated, or anything, because if you do, then it's not instinct anymore, but logical thinking. The machine copies or emulates/simulates, therefore the way it acts is not instinctive anymore. Instinct is more like an inner trait of a living being, that does not involve thinking.

[ETC]

....um, why, exactly, not?

[Choo Choo]

Because it's not, per se, a living being with a proper soul. Sure, through experience it might learn some common sense on the basis of logic, "this is how most people would act in this situation", or "this is more likely to get me to my end result", but intuition? The shiver-down-your-spine thing? That's basic, animalistic instinct. Survival. A machine might have a "this situation is not good for my existence" thing, but not based on intuition, it's based on logic.

I'm not saying that a machine can't develop a personality over time, just that it will be based on logic.

Edited by Choo Choo, 27 November 2008 - 10:41 PM.

[Azkyroth]

Because it's not, per se, a living being with a proper soul. Sure, through experience it might learn some common sense on the basis of logic, "this is how most people would act in this situation", or "this is more likely to get me to my end result", but intuition? The shiver-down-your-spine thing? That's basic, animalistic instinct. Survival. A machine might have a "this situation is not good for my existence" thing, but not based on intuition, it's based on logic.

I'm not saying that a machine can't develop a personality over time, just that it will be based on logic.

Leaving aside the highly dubious nature of the presumed necessity of a "soul" for the behavior of living things as we observe it, which seems to be, in large part, duplicated in Faerun in normal circumstances, that seems like a premature conclusion. It seems to me that a great deal of instinct is really just pattern-recognition and extrapolation, which we have no reason to believe a computer couldn't be programmed to emulate flawlessly. And it's not clear to me what meaningful difference there would or could be between a genuinely perfect emulation of a process or behavior and that process or behavior itself. Insisting that emulated instinct doesn't "count" because it's occurring in the "wrong" substrate seems kind of like insisting that bumblebees can't possibly fly because their aerodynamics don't permit it.

(Also, it's worth differentiating between "logic" in the sense of computer circuit analysis and "logic" in the sense of our rhetorical constructs).

Edited by Azkyroth, 27 November 2008 - 10:51 PM.

[Choo Choo]

It's far too early in the morning for me to have a sensible conversation, but I don't agree. I think that souls are what makes us what we are.. and then it's changed by experiences and our surrounding enviroment, of course, but something has to be the foundation. And pattern-recognition, for me, is a logic thing and would be subject to intelligence, not wisdom.

Now I'm going to go back to my half-sleeping state and wish I had some chocolate.