105 replies to this topic

[Azkyroth]

It's far too early in the morning for me to have a sensible conversation, but I don't agree. I think that souls are what makes us what we are.. and then it's changed by experiences and our surrounding enviroment, of course, but something has to be the foundation. And pattern-recognition, for me, is a logic thing and would be subject to intelligence, not wisdom.

Now I'm going to go back to my half-sleeping state and wish I had some chocolate.

I gathered that you feel that way, but it's somewhat difficult to reconcile both with actual observations and experimental data in the real world, and to a degree with those in Faerun as well (Minsc's personality was substantially altered by a blow to the head, which makes sense if he experienced some degree of brain trauma and the brain is in fact what's responsible for his personality and mental functioning, whereas it's difficult to see how such a blow could cause "soul trauma"). Since the existence of souls in the first place is canonical in Faerun, I would suggest they're more accurately conceptualized as something analogous to a combination backup disk and battery, especially the latter. There's really no logical reason something at least crudely analogous couldn't be constructed and installed in a construct or other artificial creature.

[Thanatos.]

... And this debate will go on and on and on.

Hisyune could be an Android, you know, Half-Human-Half-Robo. She tried to steal the soul of another (like Irenicus with <CHARNAME>), but failed, and the machine she used exploded, causing massive damage to her body. Our dear old Wild Mage could have found her and 'pieced her back together' using a combination of magic and technology, restoring her. Unfortunetly the failed experiment of hers ripped her soul from her, bu she keeps her subconcious mind and other 'normal' humanoid functions.

Random idea. Slobber on if you wish :3

EDIT: Either your a REALLY slow reader, witya, or typing out some extremely long reply/debate. *gulp*

Edited by Ithilian Delorio, 28 November 2008 - 12:29 AM.

[Lykainon]

Hisyune could be an Android, you know, Half-Human-Half-Robo.

Wouldn't that be a cyborg of some sort? An android is what she's so far planned to be, a fake human.

[Choo Choo]

It's far too early in the morning for me to have a sensible conversation, but I don't agree. I think that souls are what makes us what we are.. and then it's changed by experiences and our surrounding enviroment, of course, but something has to be the foundation. And pattern-recognition, for me, is a logic thing and would be subject to intelligence, not wisdom.

Now I'm going to go back to my half-sleeping state and wish I had some chocolate.

I gathered that you feel that way, but it's somewhat difficult to reconcile both with actual observations and experimental data in the real world, and to a degree with those in Faerun as well (Minsc's personality was substantially altered by a blow to the head, which makes sense if he experienced some degree of brain trauma and the brain is in fact what's responsible for his personality and mental functioning, whereas it's difficult to see how such a blow could cause "soul trauma"). Since the existence of souls in the first place is canonical in Faerun, I would suggest they're more accurately conceptualized as something analogous to a combination backup disk and battery, especially the latter. There's really no logical reason something at least crudely analogous couldn't be constructed and installed in a construct or other artificial creature.

Again, I disagree. You can't compare something like a soul to a combination backup disk and battery, as you phrase it. Yes, Minsc most likely suffered brain trauma but I think that, even if his personality and perceptions changed, his nature and soul, the core of who he is, remained intact. And that is something very, very different.

[Lykainon]

Again, I disagree. You can't compare something like a soul to a combination backup disk and battery, as you phrase it. Yes, Minsc most likely suffered brain trauma but I think that, even if his personality and perceptions changed, his nature and soul, the core of who he is, remained intact. And that is something very, very different.

So, what is a soul then? And, perhaps more important for this discussion, what effects would the lack of one have upon the android in question? We know some things about how it effects elves from Bodhi and Irenicus but this NPC would likely handle it better if it was built without one. Still... in your opinion, how would a person lacking the "very core of who he is" be different from anyone else? (Besides apparently having no instincts).

[Azkyroth]

Again, I disagree. You can't compare something like a soul to a combination backup disk and battery, as you phrase it. Yes, Minsc most likely suffered brain trauma but I think that, even if his personality and perceptions changed, his nature and soul, the core of who he is, remained intact. And that is something very, very different.

I'm... having a very hard time reconciling the intuitive notions of the mind's functioning that you're promoting with the modern understanding of neurology and consciousness, even to the limited extent of my familiarity with it. Treating a soul, in Faerun, as a metaphysical "power source" and a storage medium of some sort for the consciousness of an individual strikes me as the approach to reconciling the postulated existence of souls in Faerun with what we understand about how humans' minds work that works best without throwing in a bunch of ad hoc assumptions, and throwing out sizable portions of the laws of physics that events and entities not explicitly identified as "magical" seem to obey in the context of Faerun. As such, I'm really not seeing the underlying basis of your implications about what would or would not be possible for a differently animated sentient being such as Hisyune.

[Choo Choo]

A soul.. well, if I knew that, I'd be smarter than Albert Einstein and wiser than Buddha. I think it is the foundation of what we are, and then the life we live keeps building with bricks on that, sort of like a house. That's how I picture it, anyway, but..

Anyway, that person would be very, very impressionable. Since she/he wouldn't have a "foundation", they would get one from their experiences - which means it wouldn't be, genuinely, theirs.

That's my opinion - you can't convince me otherwise and I suppose I can't really convince anyone else, either. It's not like any of this soul business is established facts.

Also, Azzy, it's clear that we'll never agree with this. It doesn't really matter, in any case, since none of us are the author. I'm just giving my views on it.

Edited by Choo Choo, 28 November 2008 - 03:51 AM.

[Thanatos.]

Again, I disagree. You can't compare something like a soul to a combination backup disk and battery, as you phrase it. Yes, Minsc most likely suffered brain trauma but I think that, even if his personality and perceptions changed, his nature and soul, the core of who he is, remained intact. And that is something very, very different.

I'm... having a very hard time reconciling the intuitive notions of the mind's functioning that you're promoting with the modern understanding of neurology and consciousness, even to the limited extent of my familiarity with it. Treating a soul, in Faerun, as a metaphysical "power source" and a storage medium of some sort for the consciousness of an individual strikes me as the approach to reconciling the postulated existence of souls in Faerun with what we understand about how humans' minds work that works best without throwing in a bunch of ad hoc assumptions, and throwing out sizable portions of the laws of physics that events and entities not explicitly identified as "magical" seem to obey in the context of Faerun. As such, I'm really not seeing the underlying basis of your implications about what would or would not be possible for a differently animated sentient being such as Hisyune.

Thats what I said, but in much less complicated words.\

Also, Azzy, it's clear that we'll never agree with this. It doesn't really matter, in any case, since none of us are the author. I'm just giving my views on it.

And you realise this 3 pages later

[Choo Choo]

I did say I was slow in the mornings. But no, it was more of a "I know I'm not the author but I want to say my piece" than a "I THINK IT SHOULD BE DONE THIS WAY oh wait crap I'm not the author sorry" thing.

[Thanatos.]

Ya'll pretty much did that, without the caps lock being turned on

[Lykainon]

Ya'll pretty much did that, without the caps lock being turned on

We're simply showing the various options that the actual author has to choose from. Then it's up to her.

Of course... everyone knows that an author as smart, enlightened and stunningly clever as Death Folder would agree with me and Azkyroth on the whole no-soul-needed-to-function-like-a-human route.

[Choo Choo]

So you mean that I'm not smart, enlightened and stunningly clever? Aww.

I just figure that if personality and fundamental nature was decided by the brain, we'd all be identical. That's like saying I'm mentally identical to Hitler because we're both humans. :|

I'm not saying that a construct can't MIMICK a soul, I'm not saying that a construct is incapable of learning and developing a personality, but that personality is defined by his or her experiences. It's not fundamental and it's not the same.

But forgive silly me for believing in something beyond logic (not any type of bearded man up in the clouds, by all means).

Edited by Choo Choo, 28 November 2008 - 04:48 AM.

[Thanatos.]

Oh Lyk, you dirty sycophant, you!

And Choo, how do we know that!

Edited by Ithilian Delorio, 28 November 2008 - 04:49 AM.

[Choo Choo]

We don't. But we don't know if it's the other way either. It's all just speculations. Prove to me that there is a logical reason behind the fact that every living being (not just humans - I've had several pets, most of them cats, and not one of them were alike in behaviour) is unique.

[Lykainon]

So you mean that I'm not smart, enlightened and stunningly clever? Aww.

Of course you are, you're Swedish. Since I'm smart, enlightened and clever without limits, it's logical to assume that people who are likely to share a similar gene pool (such as other swedes) possess these qualities as well to a certain degree.

(And that, boys and girls, is how you create a logical fallacy )

I just figure that if personality and fundamental nature was decided by the brain, we'd all be identical. That's like saying I'm mentally identical to Hitler because we're both humans. :|

This would be true if everyone's brains were biologically and chemically identical. Well, they aren't. Not to mention that our personalities are shaped by our experiences as well.

But forgive silly me for believing in something beyond logic.

I forgive you.

Oh Lyk, you dirty sycophant, you!

There are few depths I wouldn't sink to in order to insure that I'm right.

[Choo Choo]

Why, thank you! I feel a bit better now, despite the snow melting and all.

As for our personalities being shaped by experiences.. *points to brick house theory*

But I'll stop now. I think I've read too much Dean Koontz, anyway.

[Lykainon]

Why, thank you! I feel a bit better now, despite the snow melting and all.

Melting? Maybe in the 08-area. Outside my window it looks like a goddamn Christmas card.

As for our personalities being shaped by experiences.. *points to brick house theory*

Sure, we agree on that part. I think the difference is that while you consider the soul to be the foundation upon which experience builds the brick-personality, I think our brains and DNA-makeup serve that role.

But I'll stop now. I think I've read too much Dean Koontz, anyway.

That's just not possible.

[Choo Choo]

Melting here, alright. Was all pretty with the snow a few days ago, but now it's almost completely bare and the rest is a grey sloshy mass which reminds unpleasantly of brains.

And no, you're right, it's not possible to read too many Dean Koontz books.

But I do think we got a bit off topic now.

However you decide to go about it with the whole robot thing, Death Folder, I'm looking forward to it and am sure it will be great.

Edited by Choo Choo, 28 November 2008 - 05:31 AM.

[Lykainon]

But I do think we got a bit off topic now.

However you decide to go about it with the whole robot thing, Death Folder, I'm looking forward to it and am sure it will be great.

I agree with all of this. In other words, sorry 'bout the OTness and waiting impatiently for the mod.