8 replies to this topic

[Herr Krautz]

Hello! I am Herr Krautz, and I am a talented writer.

Addendum: I have no skill when it comes to writing code, none, nil, nada. Not for this or any other game. I hope, however, that with the help of the vast treasury of knowledge that exists on the internet, on these fine forums, and in my waste basket, I can compensate and produce a mod that kicks some serious ass. Therefore, anyone who even says 'wassup' in this thread is going to get some credit by the time this mod comes out - well, okay, not just 'wassup', but you get the picture.

So, I've decided to use this as a sort of development diary for a rather adventurous mod that myself and a friend (I'm the one doing all of the bloody work ) are designing. It involves a pair of NPCs - similar to Xzar and Montaron or Khalid and Jaheira in Baldur's Gate I - who we plan on fully integrating into the Baldur's Gate II world, with several quests, banter, interjections, etc. They'll be talking to themselves, to Bioware NPCs, to the PC, to other people, to Irenicus, to walls, to buildings (just kidding)... they like to talk. Once you get to know them, though, I don't really think a romance is something you're going to be wanting... did you ever think about romancing Jan, after all?

Now then, let's meet the bastards we'll be playing with.

'General' Doli
Race: Dwarf
Class: Fighter
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Biography: When asked about his past, DOLI proceeds to ramble on for some time about his past exploits, contradicting himself three or four times. His eyes glow with anger as he mentions such fantastic characters as Mystra, Halaster, Mephistopholes, Volothamp and Demogorgon. Apparently, the dwarf holds a grudge against just about everything in existence, although he certainly doesn't show it. A jovial character, the good general seems more interested in ranting about his various quests for revenge than actually undertaking them. He explains that he is a planewalker, along with his companion, Celdor, although from the looks of things it doesn't seem like he's ventured to another plane for quite some time, if ever. Still, the dwarf has a true lust for adventure, one which he seems to be sating by travelling with you.

Celdor Tuldin
Race: Elf
Class: Fighter/Wizard
Alignment: True Neutral
Biography: When asked about his past, CELDOR jerks a finger over at Doli and tells you to ask him.

So, a few questions, as we start our little journey here. First of all, what do ya'll think of the characters themselves? In case their biographies don't tell you enough, the pair of them are both glory-seeking adventurers, far more interested in fame and the 'thrill' - well, in the case of Doli, at least - than gold. Obviously, I don't want to go too much into their past, but their personalities can basically be summed up as (Doli - rude, lewd, boisterous, brash, head-strong) (Celdor - sarcastic, apathetic, sardonic, etc.)

As it might not be clear, in addition, Celdor is a barrister - that is, a lawyer.

And finally, I have one question before we go anywhere: where should the player meet the pair of them? I don't want it to be so simple as:" Hey, what's up? I'm Celdor. Let us join you." That sort of thing is lame. I'm thinking something like the situation with Minsc and his witch whose name I can not spell for the life of me. You meet one of them and the other asks you to help you rescue them - probably from jail. The Copper Cornet's out - that place is way too crowded with NPCs as is. I don't want to pull a Yeslick and have them join your party at the Tree of Life, either (an exaggeration, but you get me )

I'm asking for general ideas... that is, what would YOU like to see in the mod? It's not that I am not creative enough to come up with something on my own, but I'd like to cater to at least one or two of the fancies of the players here.

[SConrad]

Hi!

First of all, I like you. I like your style, you seem to know how to write and you can use proper punctuation. All of this means that you've passed the litmus test for getting my attention, which already differentiates you from 90% of the mod ideas I see. Way to go.

Having said that, I'm not sure if I am as excited about the mod idea itself. Two mod characters are double work, as you have to do double of the writing. Trust me, creating one quality NPC is hard enough. Players are also less likely to take an NPC pair along in the game, because they take up two of the meager five NPC slots in the party. I know I don't want to be forced to take two. And even if you make one of them optional--so that you don't have to take both--you're still going to have to do double work.

My feeling is that you should focus on one of these characters, and my vote would be on Doli. This may be because there is more information about Doli than there is about Celdor, but I also like the idea of a somewhat crazed dwarf better than yet another cynical elf.

You also don't want to go overboard with quests and talking. The PC is the star of the show in the BG series, and should remain that way. Many NPC mod authors fall into the trap of making too much of their character, so (s)he takes over. One quest--maybe two if they're short--a limited amount of dialogues/interjections/banters will not only keep the workload down for everyone. Got more quest ideas? Great, let's make a quest mod. Got more talk ideas? You can always do more NPCs, though maybe not in the same mod.

Now, I'm not sure whether you are looking for help or not. But if you are, I'm going to refer you to three posts I've made earlier about the same subject; it starts with this one and continues with my two following posts in the same topic, this one for further thoughts and this one as an addendum. To summarize; if you are looking for help, I believe the best way to get it would be to find an active project you feel like helping out with and then offering to assist. Because really, if you help getting someone's mod released quicker, they'll have more time for other projects...

If you want to see this through no matter what, then your safest bet is to learn the coding aspects of modding as you go, as you seem to have indicated that you want to do.

No matter which of my suggestions you follow in the end (if any), I would like to see more information about the characters. And I would love to see some writing samples as well--banters are usually a good way of presenting that.

[Galsic]

To be honest, I, for one, don't mind NPC pair mods. I almost always have two mod NPCs in my party, and if they come in the same package, all the better for the sake of neatness and convenience. We're also talking about one more pair who'll banter with one another, rather than two mod NPCs (those outside the Crossmod Banter Pack, that is) from different authors who will ignore each other.

Of course, both will certainly have to be quality characters. You may already have a great deal developed in writing. Otherwise, you might want to consider SConrad's advice about concentrating on one NPC/quest.

Regardless, I wish you luck in all this .

[Miloch]

I like it too, but one thing sticks out. Celdor's biography makes no sense if you've sent Doli on a solo quest into an abandoned cave or otherwise taken him out of the picture.

[Thanatos.]

I agree completely. Your first four lines of text is enough to grab my attention. Not that its worth much anyway, but still, you've got it.

My feeling is that you should focus on one of these characters, and my vote would be on Doli. This may be because there is more information about Doli than there is about Celdor, but I also like the idea of a somewhat crazed dwarf better than yet another cynical elf.

Quoted to emphasize the point. There are a lot of elven mods out there and no matter how awesome they are, they're still elves. Unique NPC's are the characters you want, because scrolling through the archives of mods that exist is only going to grant you a few good, fun-to-play-with NPC's. (I'm not going to embarrass Xan by mentioning his name (just contradicted myself. Damnit))

[Konalan]

Personally, I like the idea of introducing another dwarf into the mix. From what I gather, his personality is similar to that of Jan's (in terms of telling stories anyway). Like everyone else, I'm not crazy about yet another elf appearing in the game. No offense, but elves seem to be more commonplace than humans now.

Something that I would like to see is making Doli a fighter/cleric instead of a standalone fighter. There aren't very many cleric NPC mods out there and the current choice of clerics is rather limited.

As for placing the NPCs, I would suggest placing them in a classic-style dungeon where you would expect a couple of adventurers to be. I suppose you could put them in the Umar Hills cave where the three would-be adventurers who ask you for swords and ale end up. That would be an interesting encounter.

[Herr Krautz]

Alright, well, I definitely like the responses that I've gotten so far from everyone - SConrad, Galsic, Miloch, Thanatos, and Konalan have all helped me gain a bit more perspective on the matter - I'd honestly had no idea that there were that many elves in the game (cynical ones, to boot!) Therefore, I'm definitely considering dropping Celdor from the roster and making this a simple 'one-man' mod, although I am not entirely certain. Perhaps, worst-case-scenario, I could simply make him a human. His race is not crucial to his character, to be honest.

SConrad - I don't want to go overboard on the quests and dialogue and what not, definitely not. But I do want to essentially make it so that my characters are not really distinguishable from the Bioware ones. That means that I'd like to give them one fairly big quest that they give upon joining, and then one or two smaller quests throughout the game (for instance: Mazzy and the Umar Hills quests, then the quest in Trademeet). Now, obviously, there are some NPCs who don't work that way - Anomen's 'big quest' comes a while after he joins your party, as does Jan's (by the way, the Hidden? Who the hell wrote that quest? What the helll? That may well be my second project ) I'll also give them a reasonable amount of banter and interjections - probably more of the latter, as they are definitely the more common.

I think I'll let you guys take a look at a pair of conversations I've written that includes Celdor - my main reason for including Celdor was that, the way I've written the scraps of dialogue I've come up with so far, he and Doli are basically foils for one another. This isn't anywhere near proper code, but I decided to go ahead and write everything first and then worry about coding it. One step at a time, right?

JAHEIRA: You have been travelling with us some time, Celdor, and I have yet to see you display any sort of talent that would mark you as worthwhile.
CELDOR: Holy - you've got to be kidding me, lady. I've shot more arrows than I have time to count, most of them over your damn shoulders. Just missed your heart by an inch or two, I imagine. That takes precision and skill, especially when there is as tempting a target as yourself.
JAHEIRA: Hrm... yes, it is true that you have skill with the bow. But so do many others, and they do not carry with them the attitude.
CELDOR: Oh, so you want to talk about attitude? Whatever... you really want to know my "talents"? Fine then. I've got with me a certification... a cert-if-ication. See?
JAHEIRA: AttoUrney-at-law... what is the purpose of the U?
CELDOR: Well, heh, that's a funny story... sometimes I don't do too good a job representing people in court. That's where the U comes in, get it? Because I claimed to be an attoUrney, not an attorney, so that's their fault, isn't it? Buyer beware!
JAHEIRA: Why would you- no, never mind. I do not wish to know any longer.
CELDOR: No, listen, this is the best part... then, when I actually manage to win a case, it's surprising to everyone, because I'm only an attoUrney, not an attorney. So as you can see, one little U makes all the difference. Hmm... uh, what were we talking about?
JAHEIRA: Nothing. We never have talked about anything. We never were talking about anything. We never will talk about anything. Ever. Again.

DOLI: 'ey, Celdor. Ye e'er wonder why we're here?
CELDOR: It's probably got to do with the gods and philosophy and that sort of thing. You've heard it all before, though, right? If you ask me, it's probably got to do with the whole 'destiny' thing. As in, you and me, we're destined to save the world, kick ass, take names, et cetera. <CHARNAME>, over there, is destined to be our stuntboy.
PLAYER: Who are you calling a stuntboy?
OR Watch your mouth, barrister, lest I cut out your tongue.
OR Yeah, I know... it's kind of pathetic, really. You're so awesome, Celdor.
CELDOR: Oh, I was just talking about Doli.
OR Right... remind me to carry an extra one with me next time.
OR That's the spirit, chum. Keep that up and you might just learn something one day.
CELDOR: Anyway, the way I see it, we're basically here to perform the divine will of the gods or fate or whoever it is that's in control of the dice up there... or maybe nothing here is real. Maybe it's all a fantasy world that a bunch of weird kids are playing in their basement.
DOLI: Woah, woah, woah, Celdor, 'old th' hell on. I meant why are we here - as in, this tavern?
CELDOR: Oh. Uh...
DOLI: Bane's blisterin' beard, man, get a bloody hold of yerself. Gettin' all existential on me, cripes. If'n I needed tha' I'd go and, uh, hire a prostitute 'n jus' sit down and talk wit' them for a few hours about th' local rumors. Then I'll pay 'em in copper pieces 'en go out and explain gently to me romantic interest tha' nothin' happened.
CELDOR: That sounds vaguely familiar.
DOLI: Probably should, because tha' is similar to wha' happened 'tween me and yer mother th' other night. Didn't mean ta wake ye, lad.
CELDOR: ...

EDIT: Miloch, yeah, you're right. I may have to edit the biography a bit, because I don't plan on forcing the two characters into your group. That is never any fun for anyone, it would seem.

Edited by Herr Krautz, 19 May 2009 - 04:28 PM.

[Miloch]

His race is not crucial to his character, to be honest.

I have to agree with that, and I for one wouldn't boycott a mod because it had another elf in it, though there are loads of mods with the pointy-eared bastards. I could almost see the Celdor character as a halfling though, and the whole barrister/archer (or slinger) thing is almost even funnier that way. But he could be a human, a gnome or (gods forbid) even a half-orc.

What SConrad says is true - one NPC is hard enough to code, let alone two. But, don't let that hold you back. You don't have to make all your NPCs joinable either - most people assume you do. For example, you could have one character or the other show up in every tavern the party goes to, either straggling behind the party or arriving there in advance to give info or just banter in general.

I like the dialogue so far, but one thing about mod dialogue that's different from most other types of writing (so I hear) is that it is quite non-linear. In other words, it'd read more like a "choose your own adventure" book (if you remember those things) than a conventional novel, having several endings, outcomes, etc. If it's between two NPCs that isn't so much of an issue as between NPCs and the PC, but the latter is going to have to figure rather prominently in any mod (the PC is the protagonist after all, like it or not). You do have some ORs in there, which is good - hopefully they lead to other paths (not that it has to get too complicated though).

I'm sure all that's been said before by those who know more, but there it is again. I also don't know how many threads like this I've commented on, saying "great ideas" etc., and they all kind of fizzle out. But I hope you persevere with this - that's what modding is about.

[Herr Krautz]

Well, just a quick update - no lengthy treatise here.

I've decided to separate the mod into two different parts: one for Doli and one for Celdor. I'll be starting on Doli, and once I finish that mod completely 100%, I will move onto Celdor, who will probably end up being a halfling or gnome or something. In addition, I've decided to place Doli outside the circus, eager to collect a (in his mind heavy) debt from one of the performers, but unable to enter due to the guard posted outside.