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Discussion of v3.11 [ARCHIVED]


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#21 aVENGER

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:09 PM

I know you don't want to work on it much more, I just suggest some minor work to assure compatibility.
I'm not sure I can do everything on my side...


No worries, I'll do what I can to help you within the next bugfix/balance update.

For example: since, among the rest, I'm adding "shadow" copies of all thief kits, I need to know which proficiencies they will have. So the easiest way would be to simply include in our mod your modifications to WEAPPROF.2DA, and apply them to the shadow kits as well (3 stars allowed to dualwielding).
While all the rest of your additions (Tranquillizer, Kit revisions ecc.) should be only available trough the Rogue Rebalancing Mod.


Sounds reasonable to me.

We should try to coordinate in these "minor" issues, if possible


Sure, just give me the details on anything you want me to do.

Use Scrolls seems to work, though it's not yet entirely completed, and it'll require testing.


Good to hear that, though I'm no longer sure that I want to include it in my mod. It is your own idea and creation after all, so it should be exclusive to your mod.

Wizardslayers/Thieves will have both greyed. They won't be allowed to do magery in any way, won't even be duallable to mage


Makes complete sense from my point of view as well. In fact, I found it quite silly that Bioware made such a blatant concept error in the first place.

#22 Littiz

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 01:31 AM

Thanx for your disposition!

Good to hear that, though I'm no longer sure that I want to include it in my mod. It is your own idea and creation after all, so it should be exclusive to your mod.

Nonsense, the idea was floating around here as well, I only found a way to code it. Actually we'd be happy if the new revisions we're doing became a standard :)
And lastly, we've asked your permission for some bard abilities, so no problem!

More valid reasons not to include it would be:
1)Still it's not "downwards" compatible with other fan-made kits. They must be installed later. Hoping in Weimer...
2)It may show some computational overload now and then. I tried to make efficient checks (they result almost always false at the first condition, so all the rest should be skipped each time), but still. I wanted theoric completeness, so I included checks useless with the existing NPCs and NPC mods.
3)We'd ask to wait for the release of our mod, which shouldn't be that far anyway :)

So the point is: your choice of course, but really, no problem!
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#23 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 08:56 AM

No problem T.G. your criticism has always been concise, constructive and highly appreciated. It just happens that we disagree over this particular matter

Noted, and NP of course ;) . Since I already asked for permission, I'll implement some minor changes on this one though. Go and see yourself in the "thanks" section as soon as the mod comes out! :lol:
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#24 Assassin

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 03:07 PM

I think that my in-game description might be a bit unclear. <_< You see, the Crippling Strike HLA actually has a 50% chance of either Blinding or Slowing the target.

So, in reality, this gives you a 25% chance of Slowing the target, a 25% chance of Blinding it (these two are mutually exclusive) and a 50% chance of doing nothing at all. Also, this ability lasts for 3 rounds, while the effect on the FoA is active as long as the flail remains equipped, so I don't think it's really that unbalancing.

BTW, what area effect weapons are you reffering to?

I understand it perfectly. A Fighter/Thief can have 7 1/2 attacks per round Imrpoved Hasted. That means that he can either Slow or Blind (both quite devastating) 3 different opponents. Realistically, using a Bow, he could disable 9 different opponents in 3 rounds, which is pretty much the whole battlefield. Hell, even a pure Thief could do it with Tuigan's Bow.

'Slow or Blind is not devastating' You ever seen a Blind enemy? A Blind enemy doesn't attack you, because he can't see you. Slow is almost as good, because they will now advance on you very slowly.

Can it be chosen multiple times as well?

Area-effect attacks include Fire Seeds and Arrows of Detonation. If they work with Greater Deathblow, I don't see why they wouldn't work with this skill as well.

#25 aVENGER

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 04:15 PM

T.G.Maestro wrote:

Noted, and NP of course  . Since I already asked for permission, I'll implement some minor changes on this one though. Go and see yourself in the "thanks" section as soon as the mod comes out!


No problem T.G. you have my full permission to alter the abilities in your own mod as you see fit. Just make sure to document what changes are yours in the readme.

Assassin wrote:

A Fighter/Thief can have 7 1/2 attacks per round Imrpoved Hasted. That means that he can either Slow or Blind (both quite devastating) 3 different opponents. Realistically, using a Bow, he could disable 9 different opponents in 3 rounds, which is pretty much the whole battlefield. Hell, even a pure Thief could do it with Tuigan's Bow.


Remember, it's still just a 25% chance with each hit, and the blind/slow effect (as well as the coating effect itself) lasts for 3 rounds only (18 seconds). I don't really see how this would be that much worse than say, the Power Attack HLA for warriors, which has a 100% chance of paralyzing an opponents for 2 rounds if he fails a save vs. spells at -4. IMO, a 12 second paralyze is much more dangerous than an 18 second blind/slow effect.

Can it be chosen multiple times as well?


Yes.

Area-effect attacks include Fire Seeds and Arrows of Detonation.


AFAIK, the arrows of detonation can not be acquired by regular means in BG2, i.e. they can not be purchased nor found anywhere in the game. As for the fire seeds, IMO combining them with a 'coating effect ability' is really a powegamish tactic per se, used and known by very few players, and you must have a druid in your party to even make them. I don't really feel the need to alter the whole ability just because a few people might find a rare game instance in which they can abuse it.

#26 Assassin

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 05:09 PM

The difference between ignoring saves and having a save at -4 is actually quite big. 25% chance for each effect. That means that half of the time, it will be either Slow or Blind. Which means that for... say... a 7 1/2 attack per round F/T, he will attack 22 1/2 times which means that he can actually Slow or Blind 11 people. Those 11 people will be Slow'ed, or Blind'ed, whereas with Power Attack, they still get a save. Additionally, with multiple 'castings' of it, you can make it last quite a bit longer.

Arrows of Detonation can be acquired with the Tactics mod, which is actually quite popular.

*edit* How about a Mage/Thief? Improved Haste on MMM, and you get 10 ApR. Because you need to re-cast MMM somewhere, you will probably get about 26-28 attacks in total. Which means 13 - 14 Blind or Slow'ed folks.

#27 aVENGER

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 05:20 PM

The difference between ignoring saves and having a save at -4 is actually quite big.  25% chance for each effect.  That means that half of the time, it will be either Slow or Blind.  Which means that for... say... a  7 1/2 attack per round F/T, he will attack 22 1/2 times which means that he can actually Slow or Blind 11 people.  Those 11 people will  be Slow'ed, or Blind'ed, whereas with Power Attack, they still get a save.  Additionally, with multiple 'castings' of it, you can make it last quite a bit longer.


Even so, I doubt Crippling Strike will be as dangerous as Power Attack or some similar HLAs. Also, I should have noted that (as most other of my custom abilities) CS is capped at level 20 meaning that it will not affect any creatures who are above it (most 'boss-type' characters).

Arrows of Detonation can be acquired with the Tactics mod, which is actually quite popular.

Still, abusing the arrows/seeds in a cheesy manner is up to the player in question, and not everyone wants to do that.

*edit*  How about a Mage/Thief? Improved Haste on MMM, and you get 10 ApR.  Because you need to re-cast MMM somewhere, you will probably get about 26-28 attacks in total.  Which means 13 - 14 Blind or Slow'ed folks.


This too is essentially an abuse. If I could, I would limit the 'coating effect' to regular missile weapons only, but sadly due to the nature of the IE this is impossible.

Anyway, if I am to alter this ability in the next bugfix/balance update, then it could look like this:

Crippling Strike

An experienced Rogue can use the knowledge of his opponents' weak spots to gain an advantage in combat. For two rounds after this ability is activated, every attack of the Rogue deals a devastating blow that weakens an enemy. Any time the Rogue makes a successful attack he deals maximum damage, the Strength score of his victim is lowered to 10 (save vs. death at -2 to avoid) and there is also a 30% chance that the opponent will be either Slowed or Blinded for 2 rounds (no save).

Summary:
  • The save vs. death penalty for strength drain is now -2
  • Chance of Slowing/Blinding the target lowered to 30% (mutually exclusive 15% Blind and 15% Slow)
  • Blindness/Slow/STR Drain effect duration lowered to 2 rounds (12 seconds)
Note: The 'coating effect' itself is also reduced to 2 rounds

#28 Assassin

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 07:00 PM

'kay... I don't think that MMM is an abuse, because why can't Thieves know where to aim the MMM? I mean, they should be able to.

Oh, and is the level 24 thing total for thieves, or just for the thief class?

#29 aVENGER

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 07:51 PM

'kay...  I don't think that MMM is an abuse, because why can't Thieves know where to aim the MMM?  I mean, they should be able to.

Perhaps, but hurling a burning piece of rock is somewhat different from stabbing a blade or shooting an arrow at a vital spot.

Oh, and is the level 24 thing total for thieves, or just for the thief class?


If you mean the level 20 cap on my abilities, than I'll explain it this way. Any creature in BG2 has a defined character level. As long as the rogue targets creatures who's level is below 21 (no matter their class/race etc...) the abilities work fine, but if he targets a creature who's total character level is above 20, then the core functions of the abilities (charm, stun, feeblemind, slow, blind, STR drain...etc) will fail. However, currently some of the text/sound/animations, which accompany these effects, might still display (it's a bug, but I've found a way to fix it, and will implement it in the next update).

#30 Littiz

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 12:57 AM

Unfortunately I've not had the time to consider all the compatibility issues, so for now I'd just ask this.
If you can use these settings for LUABBR, we should be pretty safe (I mean, no Swash table assigned to Assassin or something)
Of course you'd just put "0" when your kit uses the regular table, but if the others follow this numeration they shouldn't clash with our tables, even when installed after Refinements. :)

ASSASIN Th2
BOUNTY_HUNTER Th3
SWASHBUCKLER Th4
BLADE Ba2
JESTER Ba3
SKALD Ba4
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#31 aVENGER

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 01:32 AM

My kit modifications are currently using this setup, but I could easily change it to something that suits your mod better:

ASSASIN           	 Th0               	 
BOUNTY_HUNTER     	 Th2               	 
SWASHBUCKLER        Th1               	 
BLADE             	 Ba1               	 
JESTER              Ba2               	 
SKALD             	 Ba3

BTW, there is no need to rush on the compatibility issues. As mentioned above, my update isn't due until late next week, and by then you'll probably be able to point out any other necessary changes which I should make.

#32 Littiz

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 01:38 AM

EDIT: Ok, no rush then!

To be clearer, you'd have to specify when a kit uses the "regular" table, using SET_2DA_ENTRY even for values like "Th0".
This way there won't be problems even if you find the table already altered by us: you'll set it back to normal :)
For the rest of the kits, I think if we keep coherence in names it's better in any case.

I'm a bit confused as I don't rembember if assassins already used a different table in the original game, but if we change ALL the entries every time, no problems :)
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#33 aVENGER

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 03:58 AM

I have just finished a test run through BG2 + ToB with all of my mods installed. In general, everything seams to be functioning as intended, though a few minor bugs were encountered and fixed and some small balance changes were made as well. All of this will be reflected in the upcoming v3.10 mod update.


Littiz, I am still waiting for your input before I alter the LUABBR.2DA values. If you can, give me the final list on the kit marks which I should use to maintain maximum compatibility with your mod. Is the list your previous post still valid or have you made some changes? Also, try to inform me of any other alterations which I should consider before this Friday, for that is when the update will be published. Most likely, I won't be making any more updates or visiting the boards so often after next week.

T.G, I'm also testing an alternate version of Crippling Strike which applies a THAC0 penalty to the target instead of granting Maximum Damage to the rogue. If you prefer, we could use that version to synchronize the ability in both of our mods. IMO, it would be a somewhat confusing for the players to find two abilities of the same name with different aspects in both mods, so we should make a compromise.

#34 Littiz

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 09:55 AM

TGM redirected me here, but sorry, I'm a bit in a hurry...
Yes, I kept the settings I already posted for thieves and bards.
The only thing to do would be to set EVERY entry to your value, even for "default" values. And of course copying all your versions of the tables.

I'm sure there'd be some redundancies, but at least it's safe and not really costly, and it seems we have not time to find the perfect solution ;)

I think and hope :P I can handle any other compatibility issue on my side. Hopefully testing won't show too many problems :D

Anyway, thanx for all your help! :)
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#35 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 10:03 AM

Littiz was here. Good. ;)

T.G, I'm also testing an alternate version of Crippling Strike which applies a THAC0 penalty to the target instead of granting Maximum Damage to the rogue

I'm very much positive I will use this version:

Cripple
An experienced thief knows many dirty tricks to hinder or decapacitate opponents in combat. For 3 rounds after the ability is activated, every attack of the thief has a chance to weaken the target creature. Anytime the thief makes a successful attack, the Strength of the victim is lowered to 10 for 18 seconds (save vs. death to avoid). In addition there is a 25/25/25% chance that the target will be either blinded, slowed, or will suffer extra 5D6 piercing damage (save vs. breath at -4 to avoid effects).
Cripple lasts for 3 rounds.

What do you think about this one? Would it be good for you? I think it is fairly well balanced, and fits the 3rd E concept somewhat.
(By the way I already created a brand new icon for this ability ;) as well)
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#36 aVENGER

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 11:49 AM

Littiz wrote:

Yes, I kept the settings I already posted for thieves and bards.
The only thing to do would be to set EVERY entry to your value, even for "default" values. And of course copying all your versions of the tables.


Very good! I'll use the values which you suggested earlier then and make sure that the Th0 and Ba0 are also set manually where needed.


T.G.Maestro wrote:

I'm very much positive I will use this version


Overall, it looks very nice, though I slightly object to this part:

suffer extra 5D6 piercing damage


In 3E, the extra damage dice falls into the realm of the Sneak Attack, rather than CS. Perhaps we could use the THAC0 penalty instead? If you are interested in checking out this effect, I've temporarily uploaded a zip archive with the new files here Just copy those into the override folder on top of the previous installation of my mod and it should work.

Note: that effect is at 100% and just for show. For the real work, I was thinking about 0-24% Slow, 25-50% Blind, 51-100 THAC0 Penalty (-1), save vs breath at -4 to avoid everything. The ability duration would also be cut to two rounds, which should be enough, as the effects are cumulative.

By the way I already created a brand new icon for this ability  as well


Now that is a real achievement! B) I myself have been having extreme difficulties with BAM Workshop, the best I could do is colorcode an already existing icon into a different hue, and even that didn't always display properly. Furthermore, importing my own images from Photoshop seemed completely impossible... :(

#37 Caedwyr

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 12:26 PM

I just did the fight with Bodhi in Chapter 6 and I must say I am impressed. The shadow thief reinforcements were very well done, with the scripting firing off at all the right points. One thing that would be nice, is for Arkanis to go and disarm the traps a bit quicker on the lower level, since like always I ended up running over them long before he got there.

The chosen of cyric encounter immediately after the Bodhi battle was very nicely done, and I must say seemed to fit right into the game with regards to quality of scripting and plot. One problem with it however, is if you have Drizzt's gear when leaving the crypts Malchor Harpell doesn't get a chance to spawn and ask for the stuff back. This leads to infinite spawn loops of an agressive Malchor Harpell whenever you zone into a new area (not fun).

All in all, a very good piece of modwork.
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#38 aVENGER

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 12:45 PM

I just did the fight with Bodhi in Chapter 6 and I must say I am impressed.  The shadow thief reinforcements were very well done, with the scripting firing off at all the right points


Thanks! As mentioned in the readme, I just wanted to make the allies a bit more useful without going overboard, but also without making them look like wimps. I'm glad you liked it.

One thing that would be nice, is for Arkanis to go and disarm the traps a bit quicker on the lower level


Heh, that happens to me all the time with characters wearing Boots of Speed :P Hmm... perhaps I should have given Arkanis a pair.

The chosen of cyric encounter immediately after the Bodhi battle was very nicely done


At last! Someone has actually tried that! B)

and I must say seemed to fit right into the game with regards to quality of scripting and plot.


BTW, how did you find the dialogue? Honestly, I was a bit afraid that it might turn off some people that I used PST style writing and long situation descriptions, but then again Torment is my favorite cRPG of all times, so I just had to do it :)

One problem with it however, is if you have Drizzt's gear when leaving the crypts Malchor Harpell doesn't get a chance to spawn and ask for the stuff back. This leads to infinite spawn loops of an agressive Malchor Harpell whenever you zone into a new area (not fun).


Hmm, that's strange... he should only appear once, after the Chosen battle (when you leave that area) unless you run away from him of course. Where did you encounter him exactly?

#39 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 02:43 PM

In 3E, the extra damage dice falls into the realm of the Sneak Attack, rather than CS. Perhaps we could use the THAC0 penalty instead?
I was thinking about 0-24% Slow, 25-50% Blind, 51-100 THAC0 Penalty (-1), save vs breath at -4 to avoid everything

The main probelm with the THAC0 penalty is that it isn't really required: decreasing STR to 10 will result in a massive THAC0 loss as well - no need to further decrease that. And while that extra 5D6 damage is a bit "sneaky", it nicely represents that the thief can make truly devastating attacks with this action (one of your earlier goals with this ability, remember? ;) ).
The duration of Cripple should be left at 3 rounds. 12 seconds is very short, with a crap THAC0 like that of the thief class it would be a "little wonder" to strike opponents like Elite Fire Giants. That extra 6 second is required. On the other hand, I fully agree that the duration of the side effects (slow/blind) should be reduced to 2 rounds.
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#40 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 02:49 PM

Now that is a real achievement!  I myself have been having extreme difficulties with BAM Workshop

Actually, I have more than 15 new icons ready right now ;) . It requires quite a bit of patience to draw a new icon, but sometimes it is enough to change an existing one in a few steps (like I did with KAI's icon for True KAI, an extra HLA for Kensais). BG2 Refinements will come with its own set of icons for the new HLA system.
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