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Discussion of v3.11 [ARCHIVED]


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#41 Caedwyr

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 03:36 PM

I quite liked the PST style dialogue. I haven't actually done the fight yet since I talked the group of them out of attacking me right away. (They went away to check on my comments about Lord Ao and the non-interferance directive). I saw Malchor Harpell in the docks district, but he was already red-circled and Mazzy gibbed him before he could get some spell protections up. That part may be a problem with another mod I have installed ATM, since I've been having some other problems with dialogue and creature interactions.
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#42 aVENGER

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 09:46 PM

T.G.Maestro wrote:

The main probelm with the THAC0 penalty is that it isn't really required: decreasing STR to 10 will result in a massive THAC0 loss as well - no need to further decrease that.


Actually, the THAC0 penalty from STR drain is not really that big. Let's take a Fire Giant for example, who initially has 22 STR and a THAC0 value of -9. Now, when his strength is lowered to ten, his THAC0 will only drop by four points (22 str vs. 10 str) i.e. to -5, no matter how often you hit him. But, if we would add a THAC0 drain effect to CS, then a thief could potentially lower his THAC0 by much more, let's say by 10-15 points for a short while (as the effect lasts for only 12 seconds). In my testing, this proved to be quite useful and funny as well. A creature with 20 base THAC0 value will have a really hard time hitting anything.

BTW, Have you ever tried giving an improved hasted Sarevok the Soul Reaver and then pitting him alone against the Ravager, Demogorgon or even Melissan? :lol: Heh, naturally, CS would not affect creatures of such high level as that would be cheesy, but Gromnir's soldiers, Yaga-Shura's Fire Giants, and Sandai's Drow are all fair game.


Caedwyr wrote:

I quite liked the PST style dialogue. I haven't actually done the fight yet since I talked the group of them out of attacking me right away. (They went away to check on my comments about Lord Ao and the non-interferance directive).


I made three core paths for a diplomatic resolution (Persuasion, Insight and Intimidation) which can also interlink at some points. Besides INT/WIS/CHA, a high Lore value can open up some additional choices as well. In general, I didn't really want to force the player into fighting, especially because the battle can be a quite difficult depending on a few factors. BTW, here's a small tip if you have problems with the battle: in case your protagonist is not a Paladin, and you don't mind giving in to the taint of Bhaal, try intimidating Venduris by transforming into the Slayer. That can be quite... entertaining, and it will ease the battle as well. (note: this is an Evil option) :ph34r:

I saw Malchor Harpell in the docks district, but he was already red-circled


Hmm, I certainly didn't make him hostile, and I've just tested this again but it worked fine in my game. Strange...

#43 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 11:02 PM

Actually, the THAC0 penalty from STR drain is not really that big. Let's take a Fire Giant for example, who initially has 22 STR and a THAC0 value of -9. Now, when his strength is lowered to ten, his THAC0 will only drop by four points (22 str vs. 10 str) i.e. to -5

Isn't that enough? -4 can be much against a great AC (high level monks for example).

But, if we would add a THAC0 drain effect to CS, then a thief could potentially lower his THAC0 by much more, let's say by 10-15 points for a short while (as the effect lasts for only 12 seconds). In my testing, this proved to be quite useful and funny as well. A creature with 20 base THAC0 value will have a really hard time hitting anything.

This is a valid poi9nt however. What about merging these two versions into one? I like the idea of the THAC0 loss, but I won't drop the random damage effect (reasons above!). I say let us alter it the following way:

Cripple
An experienced thief knows many dirty tricks to hinder or decapacitate opponents in combat. For 3 rounds after the ability is activated, every attack of the thief has a chance to weaken the target creature. Anytime the thief makes a successful attack, the Strength of the victim is lowered to 10 for 18 seconds (save vs. death to avoid). In addition there is a 20/20/20/20% chance that the target will be either blinded, slowed, lose 1 point of THAC0, or will suffer extra 5D6 piercing damage (save vs. breath at -4 to avoid effects).
Secondary effects last 2 rounds.
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#44 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 11:36 PM

Since I won't be around until monday, I would like you to accept this version (it would be harder to synchronize if you will stay away from these boards from next week).

Anyway, have a nice weekend! ;)
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#45 aVENGER

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 11:38 PM

Isn't that enough? -4 can be much against a great AC (high level monks for example).


Not really, since their THAC0 still remains below zero. An additional -1 cumulative penalty to hit could up it to +10 or even +20, for only a short duration of course (12 sec).

This is a valid poi9nt however. What about merging these two versions into one? I like the idea of the THAC0 loss, but I won't drop the random damage effect (reasons above!).


But in 2E Thieves already have backstab... they don't really need the extra damage in CS as well. And as you said earlier, the goal of the ability is to cripple and disable an opponent, rather than kill him outright. (BTW, isn't it funny how we switched our views form the last page! :D :lol:) Anyway, if you really insist on having it, then I will accept it, as I really lack the time to discuss this much further.

Also, the saving throw for STR drain really needs a steeper penalty. Remember, high level ToB creatures have very low save vs. death values (usually below 4). This especially goes for Fighter types as in 2E, their saving throw progression favors that particular save. A -2 or perhaps even a -4 penalty should be adequate IMO.

#46 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 12:23 AM

But if you really insist on having it, I'll accept it.

Appreciated ;) .

Also, the saving throw for STR drain really needs a steeper penalty. Remember, high level ToB creatures have very low save vs. death values (usually below 4). This especially goes for Fighter types as in 2E, their saving throw progression favors that particular saving throw. A -2 or even a -4 penalty should be adequate IMO

I could accept a -2 on the saves for the STR drain, but only if there is a slight toning on the chances of side effects, so there is 40% chance that nothing happens. I think this is essentila, we must keep this thing balanced. Don't forget the massive THAC0 of Fighter/Thieves! It should look like this then:

Cripple
An experienced thief knows many dirty tricks to hinder or decapacitate opponents in combat. For 3 rounds after the ability is activated, every attack of the thief has a chance to weaken the target creature. Anytime the thief makes a successful attack, the Strength of the victim is lowered to 10 for 18 seconds (save vs. death at -2 to avoid). In addition there is a 15/15/15/15% chance that the target will be either blinded, slowed, lose 1 point of THAC0, or will suffer extra 5D6 piercing damage (save vs. breath at -4 to avoid effects).
Secondary effects last 2 rounds.
Posted Image

Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!

Member of The Silver Star team.

#47 aVENGER

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 01:04 AM

I could accept a -2 on the saves for the STR drain, but only if there is a slight toning on the chances of side effects, so there is 40% chance that nothing happens.

Sounds reasonable to me, but how about this... Instead of a 15% for the extra damage, my version would have a 30% chance of incuring a THAC0 penalty. In all other aspects the abilities would be identical. I hope that's ok for you.



BTW, Littiz if you are still reading this, I've set the kit values in LUABBR.2DA like this:

THIEF             	 Th0   (default table)
ASSASIN           	 Th0   (default table)
BOUNTY_HUNTER     	 Th3
SWASHBUCKLER        Th4

BARD                Ba0   (my custom table)
BLADE             	 Ba2
JESTER              Ba3
SKALD             	 Ba4


Note: the default Th0 marks have also been set using 'SET_2DA_VALUE' as you had requested. But tell me, will I need to copy the default thief table (LUTH0.2DA) or do you not alter it in your mod? Also, should I rename my altered (generic) Bard table to something else than Ba0?

#48 Littiz

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 02:51 AM

We modify ALL tables...
So installing your mod after ours, True thieves and assassin would get OUR table (which is meant to be for trueclasses only), unless you install copies even of the default tables.

I think it's better that you keep all your rogue balancing settings as a whole, so that in the above situation the player would use our table for all the rest of the classes, and yours for rogues.

Of course installing *our* mod after yours, would replace all the tables again, so the scenario would be:
the player would use all your tonings for rogues, kit revisions, battles, items, added shops, but he would use our entire system of HLAs. ;)
I think we can't give more choice than this!!!

BTW, we can share even some icons when we are ready, if you happen to be still here now and then ;)
Ever forward, my darling wind...

#49 aVENGER

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 03:37 AM

I think it's better that you keep all your rogue balancing settings as a whole, so that in the above situation the player would use our table for all the rest of the classes, and yours for rogues.

Alright, I'll copy all the 2DAs used by my mods then.

Of course installing *our* mod after yours, would replace all the tables again, so the scenario would be:
the player would use all your tonings for rogues, kit revisions, battles, items, added shops, but he would use our entire system of HLAs.


This would indeed be the ideal solution. Can you make a note in the readme of your mod that it should preferably be installed after my Rogue ReBalancing if one wishes to get the maximum benefits from both? It would certainly help the players.

BTW, we can share even some icons when we are ready, if you happen to be still here now and then


That is doubtful... I'll probably be visiting the boards about once per month from now on. But anyway, with all the effort which you put into the icons, they should remain exclusive to your mod (and I'm too lazy to replace everything now :P).

#50 aVENGER

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 04:35 AM

Finally, I have released the v3.10 update for my mod. As always, it can be downloaded from my homepage

Changes in v3.10
  • Restructured both of Marina's item stocks for easier navigation
  • Items in Marina's regular stock were slightly altered; Stealing them is no longer possible
  • The inventory icon of the Rogue's Ward buckler has been brightened a bit
  • The Guardian is now classified as a medium shield, rather than a buckler and its color coding was slightly altered
  • The silence effect caused by Venduris' sword will no longer affect opponents of level 25 and higher
  • The AC bonus provided by the Lingering Jester Song was erroneously stackable
  • Crippling Strike ability revised
  • Tranquilizing Shot and Crippling Strike no longer affect creatures of level 20 and higher
  • The secondary effects of the Bounty Hunter's special snares no longer affect creatures of level 20 and higher
  • The Blade's Weapons Display ability does not affect creatures with more Hit Dice than the Bard's current level
  • Creatures with more than 20 Hit Dice (levels) are completely unaffected by Weapons Display
  • Casting time of all newly introduced Bard HLAs (Mass Charm, Enthralling Melody, Sound Burst) increased by one
  • Secondary effect duration of Mass Charm and Enthralling Melody slightly increased
  • Secondary effect duration of Sound Burst decreased to 3 rounds
Note: This will likely be the last update to my mods, you may now consider them as finalized.

#51 Littiz

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 12:51 AM

What can I say, congrats for your fine mod!
You were one of the first to address BG2 balancing issues, and all :)

Hope you'll be back now and then :rolleyes:
Ever forward, my darling wind...

#52 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 18 November 2003 - 04:02 AM

The same here. Your work on this great game is highly appreciated aVENGER, and I believe your efforts made it even more enjoyable ;) .

On the Cripple ability: changes noted, I'll revise mine the similar way to yours.
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Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!

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#53 aVENGER

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Posted 28 November 2003 - 08:24 AM

Mod updated to v3.11

I have recently discovered a couple of minor bugs while I was last testing my mods, so I decided to make another official bugfix update. Here is the list of changes:
  • Fixed an scripting issue which was causing the CoC party to occasionally fail to react towards invisible characters
  • Several items (i.e. the Ring of Concealment and the Barrier Amulet) were erroneously unusable by certain dual-class character combinations
  • The Ring of Concealment was erroneously protecting the wearer from the Thief 'Detect Illusions' skill
  • Venduris' special Detect Illusion ability can no longer be prevented by Spell Immunity : Divination
  • The test sequence for activating the CoC encounter will now work properly from all game areas
  • Resolved some minor issues with dual-class characters and the Rogue's Ward buckler
  • Several readme files updated
  • New installer icon for aPack.exe added
Note: I still do not intend to make any more content updates (i.e. new abilities, dialogue, items... etc.) but I will try to fix any bugs that are reported to me, while I can.

#54 aVENGER

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Posted 28 November 2003 - 08:25 AM

BTW, once again, thanks for all your support TGM and Littiz, and best of luck with your own modding efforts.

#55 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 02:26 PM

The same goes for You aVENGER. You were and WILL BE a great modder in our nice little community! ;)
Again, I wish you the best in RL, much success, and true joy!
And of course, enjoy your creation... quite a pretty baby, if you ask me :D .
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Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!

Member of The Silver Star team.

#56 Littiz

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 04:05 AM

Still I hope one day you'll find that BG2 is still the best game to mod after all :) :lol:
Ever forward, my darling wind...

#57 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 19 December 2003 - 06:27 AM

aVENGER, if you happen to visit this place again, please take a look at our mod (and your included material)!
The link is in my sig ;) .
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Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!

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#58 -Bruce Lee-

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Posted 17 January 2004 - 07:25 PM

This looks like a very nice mod indeed as I am a big fan of rogues and especially bards. I have been trying to fix the enhanced bard song for a long time with no success. Does your enhanced bard song give benefits to summons aswell as party members? The regular one does not? I have not installed the mod so I haven't been able to test it.
Regards
Bruce

#59 -Bruce Lee-

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 11:26 PM

Maybe no one reads this post anymore but I'll give it a try. The berserk helper form the magic flute? Where is he? I dont seem to get that option at all.
What am I missing.
Otherwise I must say, great work!

#60 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 06:28 AM

Hi Bruce!
Since aVENGER no longer works on this mod, some of its components (like the improved bard songs and HLAs) are being handled as a component of the BG2 Refinements mod.

Check this link: BG2 Refinements and see more!
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Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!

Member of The Silver Star team.