22 replies to this topic

[Kaeloree]

Sorry ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to get on a soapbox about something that's happened regarding ME3 today... no spoilers, I promise, just frustration.

Today, leaked information about Mass Effect 3's first piece of day-one DLC came to light, and the internet is in uproar. I won't go into what it is, you can look that up yourself, but it costs $10, and is free to download if you have bought the Collector's N7 Edition. All over the internet, people are complaining that they feel like they're being cheated, because BioWare have "removed" content from the game, and that without this DLC the game will be "incomplete."

Do people not understand how development cycles work? Do they not understand the concept of content and feature lockdown? Do they not understand that months before release, the CD gets locked down so that the companies have time to manufacture it?

What do people expect BioWare to do in the meantime, twiddle their thumbs? Nothing has been removed from the game. This is how DLC works in the first place. After a game is locked down, the best time to complete post-release content is... you guessed it, directly after lockdown, while they still have the team more or less together. This is how it has always worked, and will always work.

I'm sorry to rant, but this seriously gets a bee in my pretty little bonnet. Nothing has been removed from the game, the game is complete as it is, that's the very idea. If you don't want to spend $10 on something that the team have worked on post-release, that isn't a part of the original game but is added content, don't, but don't try to pretend you have a *right* to that DLC, or that you are being cheated.

</rant>

[Daulmakan]

It wouldn't seem so bad, I think, if it wasn't DAY ONE DLC. People just assume that since they're both being released the same day they could've easily slapped them together. I also don't think that this assumption is always wrong.

This is valid for any game, not specifically ME3.

[Kaeloree]

I just think it's a shame/find it frustrating that people equate day-one with removed-from-game.

I guess the second question, following that avenue, would be: should it matter if post-release content was made before release?

I think that there's something wrong with how games are priced, and that they should cost less than they are now. OTOH, the game industry is just that -- an industry, that has to make money in order for it to continue thriving. That said, I do believe there's an argument for lower-priced games... but post-release content is never intended to be a part of the game itself. That's the point. The game should be and (I am absolutely 100% confident) will be complete without the DLC. I get frustrated when studios are demonised for trying to make money. That's... kind of the point.

[Daulmakan]

I guess the second question, following that avenue, would be: should it matter if post-release content was made before release?

The outrage you mentioned earlier would indicate that it does.

I think that there's something wrong with how games are priced, and that they should cost less than they are now. OTOH, the game industry is just that -- an industry, that has to make money in order for it to continue thriving. That said, I do believe there's an argument for lower-priced games... but post-release content is never intended to be a part of the game itself. That's the point. The game should be and (I am absolutely 100% confident) will be complete without the DLC. I get frustrated when studios are demonised for trying to make money. That's... kind of the point.

If the end justified the means this wouldn't be an issue. I don't think anyone criticies them for wanting to make money, but rather how they go about it. Sacrificing game content, real or perceived, will always have a negative effect on the gaming public. And day one DLCs do the opposite of helping dispel away that perception. To me, things like day one DLCs seem like a far cry from things like, say, Trials of the Luremaster, even if TotL was made due to complains from players that Heart of Winter was shorter than they expected. Nowadays, such complains might cost you a ban or being unable to activate your game copies.

Obviously, every company goes for the profit in the way they choose and it's up to gamers to make a purchase or not, but they also get to voice their opinion whether they like that way or not (which in turn can affect sales through "mouth to mouth"). You can't expect to implement some unpopular game design choices and have people not complain about them, even if the game in question is of good quality. I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing, it simply is this way IMO.

Personally, I dislike what seems to be the current affair for several game companies, introducing more and more "security" measures which hamper paying customers but have zero effect on hackers/pírates/whatever, the apparent tendency to cater to an average multi-platform gamer (whatever that might be) by dumbing down streamlining certain features or game story, placing unnecessary requirements for running a game (always connected to the internet even for single player, forcing a gaming client to be installed even if it's not desired, etc), tasteless unethical marketing ploys, regularly releasing DLCs of mixed quality, etc.

[theacefes]

hamper paying customers but have zero effect on hackers/pírates/whatever, the apparent tendency to cater to an average multi-platform gamer (whatever that might be) by dumbing down streamlining certain features or game story

Hugest, most gigantic, <insert other grammatically incorrect stuff> generalization of modern gaming I've seen in this forum so far. (this probably being one too)

This forum should be renamed to the Mass Effect Bitch Forum - after saving the galaxy you still have to bitch.

I am one of those psycho crazy ass multi platform traitors gamers - I own all three major consoles and a gaming PC. I play on all of them. Want to see ridiculous requirements? Look at NWN2 - that piece of shit's requirements are high, like Oblivion high, and they came out the same year. Mass Effect 3 runs on my lower end laptop that I use for portable web-dev. Even Dragon Age 2 runs on it. So I have to install Origins. Who gives a fuck? I get to play a game I like and it's not like I'm sharing my social security number with these people. Call it selling out if you like. I get my 40 hours of Reaper ass kicking and I'm a happy camper.

My view on game prices? Don't release a game that has Mass Effect - quality graphics and gameplay and then charge me 60 dollars for Dragon Age: Origins, a game that should have come out in 2006.

And yeah, the point of the gaming industry today is to make money. No money, no games. If that's the future players want, I guess those players will be happy with their Baldur's Gate copies since apparently no game can measure up to that and once the industry is dead that's all we'll have left (more mods!). And that may be true for some gamers but a note to those people - you are a very small niche.

You can't expect to implement some unpopular game design choices and have people not complain about them

Unpopular to who though? A lot of people bitched about stuff in ME2. Guess what? For a lot of it, Bioware listened and made changes. Some of them were big, others are small tweaks. The goal seems to be to streamline the gameplay so that the player can focus on the important thing - the story. Even when it comes to the whole "shooter" thing, the devs in the interviews hesitate because they don't want the game to be thought of as another Halo/CoD copy. Sure, ME isn't the most original story but it's a formula that works as opposed to this "talking out the ass/making it up as we go along" bullshit that DA has.

Day one DLC? Yeah, the game is still just fine without it. And the DLC formula clearly seems to be working for the industry - this is nothing new and I wouldn't expect it to go away.

Still upset? There's an amazing solution for this. Don't buy the game. Don't spend 80 dollars and preorder the xtreme commando collectors edition that includes 5 free Skooter replicas and a miniature toilet from the Normandy only to bitch about 5 dollar DLC later. I'm sure that if enough people are that unhappy, we'll see EA (and Bioware) take a dive and disappear forever into the abyss.

Also, to those reading this, this isn't directed personally at anyone - but I enjoy participating in these discussions. All in good fun of course.

[Eleima]

Here, K man, let me help you up on that soap box of yours... Seriously, I'm right there with you. A game is ready weeks before launch, otherwise they've failed and missed the mark. That's when a game goes gold. And they keep working on it after that so they can keep updating it or add DLC. I just don't understand why everyone complains when this happens to ME3 or any other game. Heck, when SKyrim went gold, it was cause for celebration (and much libation).

[Kwiat_W]

Who gives a fuck?

I do.

Unpopular to who though?

Me.

Still upset?

Yes.

Also, to those reading this, this isn't directed personally at anyone - but I enjoy participating in these discussions. All in good fun of course.

You basically just said you don't give a fuck about others people opinion and everybody who disagrees with you is just bitching - I wouldn't call that participating in a discussion.

To me it doesn't matter if the new DLC was developed after "feature lockdown", before or even if they started developinng the game with it. What matters is that they weren't lucky enough to have some extra time to make some extra content that accidentally will be ready on day one. No, it is a deliberate practice to have something extra ready on game release, so that they could charge their customers twice. First for the game and than for a DLC that on paper sounds so great that most people wouldn't like to play without it. Proteans were a big part of plot in previous games, but we didn't really learn much about them, now BIO wants to give us a live one as a joinable NPC, but only if we pay extra. It pisses me off to be so openly treated like a cash cow. Do they have right to do so? Sure, just like I have right to say what I think about it.

[Archmage Silver]

Sorry ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to get on a soapbox about something that's happened regarding ME3 today... no spoilers, I promise, just frustration.

Today, leaked information about Mass Effect 3's first piece of day-one DLC came to light, and the internet is in uproar. I won't go into what it is, you can look that up yourself, but it costs $10, and is free to download if you have bought the Collector's N7 Edition. All over the internet, people are complaining that they feel like they're being cheated, because BioWare have "removed" content from the game, and that without this DLC the game will be "incomplete."

Do people not understand how development cycles work? Do they not understand the concept of content and feature lockdown? Do they not understand that months before release, the CD gets locked down so that the companies have time to manufacture it?

What do people expect BioWare to do in the meantime, twiddle their thumbs? Nothing has been removed from the game. This is how DLC works in the first place. After a game is locked down, the best time to complete post-release content is... you guessed it, directly after lockdown, while they still have the team more or less together. This is how it has always worked, and will always work.

I'm sorry to rant, but this seriously gets a bee in my pretty little bonnet. Nothing has been removed from the game, the game is complete as it is, that's the very idea. If you don't want to spend $10 on something that the team have worked on post-release, that isn't a part of the original game but is added content, don't, but don't try to pretend you have a *right* to that DLC, or that you are being cheated.

</rant>

Didn't we see this "BioWare Isn't Cool Anymore" thing with Origins and Shale already (or did it just begin there?) Of course, Shale actually was cut content turned into DLC, even though they had legitimate reasons for cutting her from the game in the first place, and no, she wasn't anywhere near complete then and was only finished for the DLC pack.

That's beside the point here though... if BioWare wants to develop day one DLC packs separately, that's obviously fine - basically it's just the same stuff that they'd develop anyway, just sooner. It's funny how people wouldn't feel ripped off if BioWare had kept the From Ashes DLC a secret, and then just released it a month after the release as "regular" DLC. Like you put it, the bottom line is that this stuff was never going to be in the standard game - BioWare is just offering the option to add it for a price for those interested.

With that said, I'm very unhappy with EA's transition to Origin instead of just plain old Steam (I can tolerate Steam, but I don't like it either = DRM), but that's not BioWare's fault. And yes, I've got the Collector's Edition pre-ordered.

Edit: News post deleted. See actual thread.

Edited by Archmage Silver, 24 February 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[theacefes]

You basically just said you don't give a fuck about others people opinion and everybody who disagrees with you is just bitching - I wouldn't call that participating in a discussion.

And you are taking tiny tidbits from my post and just responding to random words. That's not really productive either. Look, I can do it too.

developed

I developed something once.

most people wouldn't like to play without it

How would they know the difference until they play it whether they would have liked it or not?

Proteans were a big part of plot in previous games

They were, so you may want to spell their name right if you're such a die hard fan.

It pisses me off to be so openly treated like a cash cow. Do they have right to do so? Sure, just like I have right to say what I think about it.

Of course you do...nothing wrong with being upset over something, especially if you care about it. You clearly missed my point or don't have a sense of humor (or you've never read a post by me) but since you actually took the time to quote random words from my disclaimer-included post so that you'd come out looking like a badass, I'll try and clarify, because you gave me a nice start to my day.

Basically, (being more serious now), my issue isn't that people complain. Everyone here has a right to speak their mind. My issue is that this is a community about modding and gaming and the things that go along with it. It's stupid to expect that everyone is just going to be posting "Oh cool!!!!" in every forum post, but in my honest and probably weightless opinion, these forums were created for us to discuss, not to put down the developer in every post and call them various slurs. For some reason, it's in the ME forum where we get these rabid, nonsensical posts which usually add up to "But I don't want to spend the money...even though I already have because I'm a die hard fan...err..privacy issues! Yes, yes.". Even in the DA forum it isn't this bad.

That tells me 2 things. One, that people like their money and want to make sure they are getting their money's worth for a game (*cough* DA:O *cough*) and two, that the people who bitch the most here probably REALLY like Mass Effect and we will see those people disappear off the face of the earth on March 6 (myself included).

EDIT: Final note: moderators, apologies for throwing this off topic.

Edited by theacefes, 23 February 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[Daulmakan]

ugest, most gigantic, <insert other grammatically incorrect stuff> generalization of modern gaming I've seen in this forum so far. (this probably being one too)

Self-referencing post? I'd say that list of adjectives more accurately descript the very paragraph they're included in. Oh well, at least you admit it at the end... Anyways, you can ask UbiSoft, Bioware, and Blizzard how they feel about some of the things I listed.

This forum should be renamed to the Mass Effect Bitch Forum - after saving the galaxy you still have to bitch.

As opposed to bitching about bitching?

I am one of those psycho crazy ass multi platform traitors gamers - I own all three major consoles and a gaming PC. I play on all of them. Want to see ridiculous requirements? Look at NWN2 - that piece of shit's requirements are high, like Oblivion high, and they came out the same year. Mass Effect 3 runs on my lower end laptop that I use for portable web-dev. Even Dragon Age 2 runs on it. So I have to install Origins. Who gives a fuck? I get to play a game I like and it's not like I'm sharing my social security number with these people. Call it selling out if you like. I get my 40 hours of Reaper ass kicking and I'm a happy camper.

Isn't it obvious? I care. Kwiat seems to care. I'd wager several more people care, too. it isn't necessary to run the game, and who knows what they do with that data. When did games turn into this strange marriage where I'm supposed to share private things with the company that makes them? As I said before, I don't like this new order of things.

And yeah, the point of the gaming industry today is to make money. No money, no games. If that's the future players want, I guess those players will be happy with their Baldur's Gate copies since apparently no game can measure up to that and once the industry is dead that's all we'll have left (more mods!). And that may be true for some gamers but a note to those people - you are a very small niche.

Didn't you complain about generalisations before? Why assume the only alternative to the complaints I mentioned before is massive industry bankruptcy?

Unpopular to who though? A lot of people bitched about stuff in ME2. Guess what? For a lot of it, Bioware listened and made changes. Some of them were big, others are small tweaks. The goal seems to be to streamline the gameplay so that the player can focus on the important thing - the story.

This is a valid point. You can never cater to every group. Some in fact will hate you for trying it. However, see my previous post for what I think of the "streamlining" rethoric. Did having an inventory detract from the story in BG2? in Dragon Age? Is looting a dead enemy or changing your NPC's gear suddenly too distracting from the main plot?

Day one DLC? Yeah, the game is still just fine without it. And the DLC formula clearly seems to be working for the industry - this is nothing new and I wouldn't expect it to go away.

If by new you mean not from last year, then yes. Five to ten years ago, though, this wan't a common practice. But I agree it's become something very difficult to ever go away.

Didn't we see this "BioWare Isn't Cool Anymore" thing with Origins and Shale already (or did it just begin there?) Of course, Shale actually was cut content turned into DLC, even though they had legitimate reasons for cutting her from the game in the first place, and no, she wasn't anywhere near complete then and was only finished for the DLC pack.

Shale is actually a good example of both sides, I think. Very good quality for a DLC, but at the same time, it felt to me that it was (should've been) a part of the original game.

That's beside the point here though... if BioWare wants to develop day one DLC packs separately, that's obviously fine - basically it's just the same stuff that they'd develop anyway, just sooner. It's funny how people wouldn't feel ripped off if BioWare had kept the From Ashes DLC a secret, and then just released it a month after the release as "regular" DLC. Like you put it, the bottom line is that this stuff was never going to be in the standard game - BioWare is just offering the option to add it for a price for those interested.

This is true to an extent. As I said before, I think perception plays a big role here.

[Choo Choo]

Topic split from ME3 News.

[Kulyok]

I've still not completed ME1, due to ugly graphics, so I can't really comment on ME3, but here's what I think of one-day DLCs - maybe it's worth it to sell two versions of the game, one with the DLCs and one without them, as opposed to "only one version of the game and then buy DLC later, if you like", because people are lazy and doing an extra step inconveniences them. Here in Russia, for example, no one would lift a finger to go to some electronic store and buy/download a DLC - they'll just download it via torrents instead. Even I would, but fortunately, with DA2 they gave us an option to buy a brand-new game with DLCs like Sebastian already included, so I chose that.

So, once again - if I pay "cost of the game + 10 bucks" and then receive a DVD with the DLC included, no extra downloads = good. If I have to pay 10 bucks AND go somewhere and do an extra download = bad.

DLCs that come later are another story entirely, unfortunately, because you'll still have to go somewhere and flash your credit card and download them, and this sucks. I would, again, offer an option: you buy a new game, but pay, say, 15$ extra(maybe more). And for this 15$ you have a right to download the entire pack of DLCs for this game, no matter how much later in development they come, just enter your game's registration code once(if you have a Bioware forum account). Good karma all around.(Then again, I only care about convenience and don't care about the money, because when it's a really good book/game/film I never care about the money. I would starve my children to get DA3 early - if I had children, of course ).

Edited by Kulyok, 23 February 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Bluenose]

DLCs that come later are another story entirely, unfortunately, because you'll still have to go somewhere and flash your credit card and download them, and this sucks. I would, again, offer an option: you buy a new game, but pay, say, 15$ extra(maybe more). And for this 15$ you have a right to download the entire pack of DLCs for this game, no matter how much later in development they come, just enter your game's registration code once(if you have a Bioware forum account). Good karma all around.(Then again, I only care about convenience and don't care about the money, because when it's a really good book/game/film I never care about the money. I would starve my children to get DA3 early - if I had children, of course ).

I'm sure that several games have produced "Game of the Year" versions including all the DLC on the disc(s). My most recent purchase was Hearts of Iron III with all the dlc included, not just things like the sprite packs and extra music, but the two expansions too. I don't think Bioware have ever done it quite like that, though - they did make an edition of DA:O complete with all the DLC, as downloads rather than on disc in that case.

[Yovaneth]

@Kulyok - Microsoft tried that approach with the 2000 version of Flight Simulator (yes - FS2000!). They had a 'standard' and a 'professional' version where the pro version included a lot more scenery and aircraft and you paid $20 extra for it. What happened? There were huge complaints from idiots claiming they'd been ripped off by buying the standard version and all the extras in the pro version very quickly found their way onto various nefarious download sites. Good idea, but it doesn't work. They're now trying again with a new version called 'Flight': in this case the base version which consists of a couple of aircraft and a small, highly detailed area is free but you pay for any other parts of the world and any other aircraft you want at $5.00-$10.00 a go. This time the approach appears to be working because people are adding up just how much they're spending and have become reluctant to post 'DLC' they've paid lots for. However, I can't see this approach working for a mainstream title - how the hell would you create a enough DLC to cover the entire development cycle?

In general I agree with Liam. In addition, people never bother to put things in context. So, I pay (for my argument) $5 for a DLC which gives me an extra two hours enjoyment and is replayable if I want. That $5 could also buy me a pint of Guinness which would last ten minutes, is not re-drinkable (recycleable... yes ) and at the end of the day, isn't half as much fun drinking it.

Now, if anyone does play with their beer... you're doing something wrong.

-Y-

[Almateria]

Except that simulator players are completely different customers from people playing Mass Effects, occupying their own small niche, I can't imagine people dropping over 1200€ on ME3 DLC

Now, if anyone does play with their beer... you're doing something wrong.

But what about Beer Pong?

Edited by Almateria, 01 March 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[cmorgan]

Beer Pong rocks. As long as by "beer" you mean a decent Jameson or Macallan, and by "pong" you mean "drink every time a politicial lies through his/her teeth"

I'm OK with multiplatforming, even though it means the ME3 multiplayer demo is a cross between CoH, CoD, and the middle school playground - turn off/mute mikes, play quick matches, and hope for the best, reminding yourself it is a. free, b. free, and c. kinda fun to blast the crap out of something every once in a while.
I'm OK with DLCs, as "official" mods, because they add new content - and while they may be highly overpriced and under-content-ed, they do something most mods can't, which is get new content into a game during its actual initial and middle phase of usage, before crazies like all of us here start tinkering away and building new stuff.
Torrenting and stealing as an ease of use or cost thing, well... nope. That's just flat out stealing. Though I do understand the frustration of not having the game available, so I guess I don't see that as an absolute - a game that is no longer available, or unavailable in someone's home country, well, a "chatic good" thievery, just like modding, where we wholesale hijack a companies' characters, code, and storyline and weave our own ideas into it. I guess I don't mind a few jumping-through-hoops and such to pay the folks who made the product - after all, we pay sports and music people pennies on the dollar what their studios/owners make; so I am paying less than a tenth of a cent to the folks who do for a living what I do for fun. I'd rather have an industry than not have one. Even mods aren't "free" - they cost someone, somewhere, bandwidth and storage and such. Ain't no free lunch.
I am even OK with having to join a stupid online service to play multiplayer; Steam isn't so bad, and origin is lousy but still not that far from Steam.

Where I draw the line is when something feels like extortion rather than upgrade. If I get an offer to upgrade my airline seat, I can choose to pay more to get a better one. But when I buy my seat, and get there, and am told the following, I tend to get a little grumpy:

Hello! Welcome to Modern PC Gaming Airlines. Please step carefully over the 11 year old PS3 players, and duck under the Facebook afficianados - we have had some trouble with our consumer focus groups, and we don't quite know where to store them at the present time. By the way, you paid for a seat, not a cushion or seatbelt or access to that seat... oh, don't worry, you don't have to pay for access. All you have to do is register with a service that will hold that corridor open for you. Pay no attention to the fact that you might be dumped from theseat at any time for a zillion different reasons, up to and including ticking off the flight attendant - we are doing you a favor [origin]. After all, we agreed to provide content - not clear, private, and simple access to that content.
Oh, by the way, we are selling this seat today with a special add on, called a 'seat belt', that we happen to have prepared in the interim between making the airplane and getting it into service. Have one - they are all the rage. Only $5 more. [first-day DLC]. We understand that some of you would rather not use one - no problem. Unfortunately, the FAA requires we hand you one, so while folks who pay the extra get nice ones, we will simply duct-tape you into your seat for the duration of our journey. Feel free to pay us whenever you want that extra little bit of comfort. Don't worry - you aren't really missing anything critical to your gaming experience - just a little cofort, and getting to use the in-flight bathrooms. Oh, and we are sorry to inform you that half of the airplane are paying customers, but the other half are not. To try to stop them from taking over the entire plane, here is 30 lbs. of additional baggage you have to carry around and trip over, that will not really stop those non-paying scoundrels, but will make sure we can proudly point to our completely cracked-on-the-first-day content being meticulously designed to cause your gaming experience to fail when we go offline, you go offline, we go out of business, you lose your internet provider, the sunspot activity disrupts your wireless connection, we decide to take everything offline and ask for more money, or the game becomes "archaeic" (meaning we don't want to deal with a piddly 12,000 or so people left in the world who actually love our content and keep playing it 12 to 14 years after the last computer it was designed for hits the junkheap) [DRM]. Have a nice Fl... Fl.. Fl.. Fl.. Fl.. Fl..

ERROR- HOST DISCONNECTED - ATTEMPTING TO MIGRATE TO NEW HOST

Host exited. Restarting wave.

Hello! Welcome to Modern PC Gaming Airlines. Please step carefully over the 11 year old PS3 players...

Edited by cmorgan, 01 March 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[Eleima]

Thanks Choo Choo.

I feel that cmorgan kinda hit the nail on the head on this issue. Torrenting games is stealing, the DLC did take manpower, work hours, storage space and bandwidth. I'm okay with installing Origins, myself. I don't like it, but if that's what it takes, fine. I want to play ME3, and if that's what it takes, I'll put up with it. However, the line needs to be drawn at some point. And the problem I have is with DRM systems like Ubisoft's for the latter installments of Assassin's Creed. I'm okay with a system like Steam which tries to ensure you're not pirating. I'm NOT okay with a game requiring a permanent internet connection to check every five seconds if my game copy is valid. What if my connection's dropped? The game kicks me out. What my ISP drops the ball, and I'm offline for weeks at a time (it's happened before, drove me insane)? I can't launch my game, let alone play it.

My only answer to that is a boycott. And not just a "I'm going to boycott your game" and end up buying it anyway. I refused to buy Revelations and AC3 can hold its little Revolution without me.

I will say one thing, though, cmorgan. Not all Facebook aficionados are bad. (Yes, I play CivWorld and Triple Town on Facebook, they're the only games I can play one-handed on my PC while the baby's nursing, so shoot me)

[cmorgan]

Not all PS3'ers, either!

Vive la difference, oui? I just don't like my hamburger topped with caviar and cheese-wiz and served with a seasalt compote... I'd like them to be separate meals (well, except for that compote. We'd better rethink that.)

[berelinde]

I'll take your seasalt compote... provided the other 99.9% of the mix is garden-grown heirloom tomatoes. In which case, pass me the pepper-mill. I'll be back after lunch.

[Yovaneth]

I'm actually not sure that the Origin approach is legal in the UK. I've bought a license to a piece of software (DA2 "Mark of the Assassin", was it?) and the company then tells me I have to install a second, unwanted piece of software to exercise the license I've just paid for, but the company didn't actually mention this second piece of software in the original contract? I think it's called deception. I don't have the money to test the legal theory though. It's also probable that EA have closed that legaility since I last read the DLC EULA.

Certainly, for years the original Microsoft O/S EULA was unenforceable under UK law, so copying and distributing the operating system discs was not piracy. They did finally close that gap though.

-Y-

Edited by Yovaneth, 06 March 2012 - 02:54 AM.