Jump to content


Photo

Valerie and Sendai (not that one)


14 replies to this topic

#1 Tempest

Tempest

    Cue Ominous Music

  • Staff
  • 6572 posts

Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:06 PM

I'm working on Valerie's interjections and scenery dialogues, and something has come up that I'm not sure is very fitting.

In one of the southern mountain areas of BG1, the party is accosted by a group of very suspicious and very insulting Amnish nobles on a hunting trip, lead by a woman named Sendai. You can resolve the situation diplomatically, or it can end in violence.

As currently written, Valerie steps in and forcefully resolves the situation peacefully by revealing that she is a Cowled Wizard of Amn and that Charname's party travels under her protection in Amnish territory. Sendai and company aren't evil or have any particular reason to intentionally murder a Cowled Wizard, so they decide that murdering in cold blood a member of one of Amn's most powerful organizations is a bad idea.

I am, however, aware that having an NPC, particularly a mod one, infringe on the player's decisions can rub a lot of players the wrong way.

Any particular thoughts one way or the other?

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#2 Daulmakan

Daulmakan

    Comfortably numb

  • Member
  • 1062 posts

Posted 01 October 2012 - 03:16 PM

If you want to enforce her dealing with the matter but at the same time give some leeway to the player, maybe add a dialogue option for CHARNAME to initiate hostilities by him/herself regardless of (and after) her intervention? And afterwards have the PC deal with an angry/annoyed Valerie? (if you're tracking friendship/romance points or some such, this might be a good place for gaining/losing approval).

#3 Bookwyrme

Bookwyrme
  • Modder
  • 5804 posts

Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:33 PM

I'd say give CHARNAME some choice. It really is annoying to have the NPC take over entirely, even when it would seem reasonable. So, yes, like Daulmakan said, give the PC a chance to say "Shut up, Val. II think she's too annoying to live" or "Thanks for helping us out of a difficult situation" or, maybe even, "I know you meant well, and you defused the situation, but never do that again."
Mods: <a href="http://www.shsforums...-auroras-shoes/">Aurora's Shoes</a> (released), <a href="http://www.shsforums...aurora-tob-npc/">Aurora NPC for TOB</a>, (released), and Hubelpot 2.0 (in progress). Contributor to the <a href="http://www.shsforums...um/353-npc-iep/">NPC IEP Project</a>.</p><p> </p><pre class="_prettyXprint"></pre><p> </p><p> </p>

#4 Tempest

Tempest

    Cue Ominous Music

  • Staff
  • 6572 posts

Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:22 PM

Done. However, in the current version Valerie will flat-out leave the party if you attack them anyway. You're attacking someone for insulting you even after Valerie defused the situation. Someone willing to do that is someone Valerie has no desire to associate with.

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#5 Bookwyrme

Bookwyrme
  • Modder
  • 5804 posts

Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:51 PM

I can see that working. I just hate being utterly railroaded.
Mods: <a href="http://www.shsforums...-auroras-shoes/">Aurora's Shoes</a> (released), <a href="http://www.shsforums...aurora-tob-npc/">Aurora NPC for TOB</a>, (released), and Hubelpot 2.0 (in progress). Contributor to the <a href="http://www.shsforums...um/353-npc-iep/">NPC IEP Project</a>.</p><p> </p><pre class="_prettyXprint"></pre><p> </p><p> </p>

#6 Tempest

Tempest

    Cue Ominous Music

  • Staff
  • 6572 posts

Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:33 PM

I don't mind railroading when it fits the situation at hand - Valerie is a Cowled Wizard, a major and official power in Amn. Few Amnish citizens are willing to anger them, much less deliberately antagonize a group under their aegis (don't expect this to save you any trouble in BG2, of course). More to the point, Sendai is being belligerent and paranoid against a group of adventurers (read: troublemakers and mercenaries) from a place that Amn's current relations with are icy at best, with war not far from everyone's minds. A Cowled Wizard traveling with such a group, though, neatly negates that. You really are left with the choice to attack these people for no better reason than they were a bit mean to you before Valerie smoothed out the misunderstanding. Which, in my mind, is an unambiguously evil act.

In any event, force the battle and expect a reputation hit (-1 or -2). Whether or not you agree with the decision being evil, Valerie certainly thinks it's an act of murder over a petty insult and will be telling people in Nashkel as much.

Edited by Tempest, 02 October 2012 - 08:16 PM.

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#7 Iavasechui

Iavasechui
  • Member
  • 37 posts

Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

Maybe add in another set of bracers of archery elsewhere? That's the only reason I would ever fight Sendai's group anyways.



#8 -Mord-

-Mord-
  • Guest

Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:10 PM

Dislike this intensely.You lose out on some seriously good gear, especially with the Exotic Items tweak installed. Those two scimitars Sendai carries are the only two magical scimitars in the game obtainable without using cheese tactics, outside of the +2 one in Durlag's Tower that you don't get until very late anyway. At least that I know of. Yes the dialog makes some sense from an RP standpoint, but the end result whichever path you choose: very annoying. Went down expecting to grab those nice scimitars for Jaheira and was unpleasantly surprised when I discovered I'd have to choose between the items or my main arcane caster.



#9 Tempest

Tempest

    Cue Ominous Music

  • Staff
  • 6572 posts

Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:45 AM

You're choosing to pick a needless fight with Amnish nobles. Valerie is a representative of an Amnish government institution. You could always boot Valerie out of the party before doing that fight, or doing it before recruiting her.


"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#10 -Mord-

-Mord-
  • Guest

Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:57 PM

I tried reloading and having Valerie decide to take a temporary "wine vacation" in Nashkel while the rest of the party journeyed south for a bit. But she left permanently anyway. A little too late to do the encounter before recruiting her, since I'm not starting a new a game or going back to where recruited her before I ran the through mines (like you're supposed to do plot-wise). And at this point all my other mage options are pretty much exhausted, short of going back and getting Dynaheir again (ugh), or dual classing Imoen. But to dual Immy I'd still need another mage at least until she got caught up. No thanks Dynaheir. I don't like her. I'm happy with this party, and Valerie is a good fit.

 

The whole scenario just seems heavy-handed, and also inconsistent. You aren't penalized if you don't have her in your party, even with other good NPCs in the group. I've killed those three many times before. I just dislike the lack of choice, especially when it involves some essentially unique items, with no effect at all on the main storyline. 

 

So, the RP'er in me can't bring myself to dump her. And the powergamer is pissed I can't get those swords now. Up to that point I loved this mod. But this seems too much like a lose-lose.

 

Maybe include another series of dialog options, where the Amnish nobles instigate a fight?



#11 -Tempest-

-Tempest-
  • Guest

Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:56 AM

Having trouble logging in at the moment.

 

 

Other good NPCs aren't Amnish officials, and there will be a couple of points in BG2 where Valerie will leave the party if you insist on attacking Amnish citizens. You want to kill Sendai for, basically, the crimes of being rude and having good loot. I don't consider that a persuasive argument to rewrite Valerie's response to this encounter. 



#12 -Zwacko-

-Zwacko-
  • Guest

Posted 10 May 2014 - 01:12 PM

It's never good when an NPC mod creates strong story-gameplay tradeoffs where none existed previously, especially when the story point is extremely minor and the gameplay issue is big.  Why not just add in a line where you trigger Sendai into attacking you?



#13 Tempest

Tempest

    Cue Ominous Music

  • Staff
  • 6572 posts

Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:47 AM

Except Sendai only attacks you if you're hostile to her, and if the gameplay point is so important, console in the scimitars. I don't even know what mod you're using that adds scimitars to Sendai because she doesn't have them in the base game to my knowledge.


"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


#14 -Mord-

-Mord-
  • Guest

Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:48 PM

I don't cheat like that, I have G3 BG2Tweaks installed, with the exotic items pack. It's what -Zwacko- said: the strong gameplay tradeoff where none existed previously, for a very minor plot point. That group of nobles are pretty arrogant, so it wouldn't be stretch for there to be a dialog option that would trigger them to attack you. Keeping in mind that Valerie is relatively low on the Cowled Wizard totem pole at this point. Heck, they might not even believe that she is one. When they typically encounter the nobles, CHARNAME's group are a bunch of nobodies to any Amnish citizens (the reason given why reputation resets at the beginning of SOA). Or they might seize upon the opportunity to take a perceived weak one out. The Cowled Wizards aren't loved in Amn.



#15 Tempest

Tempest

    Cue Ominous Music

  • Staff
  • 6572 posts

Posted 16 May 2014 - 05:39 AM

It's only a strong gameplay tradeoff if you have that particular mod installed, it would appear. I do not consider this an issue worth changing the mod over. There will always be mod conflicts, particularly with various tweak packs.


"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesterday, but it was never the streets that were evil." - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri




Reply to this topic