528 replies to this topic

[Quitch]

So, did I miss something? When you say she was not raped, do you have a good source? I'd interested to know.

This is one of those things where you can never know for sure, the game wasn't planned in that detail. Bioware sat down and decided that Irenicus did "nasty things" to Imoen, and that's as micro as it got. However, the lead designer, Dave Gaider, agrees with me on this (posted to IEEAIS during the early Ascension days).

That isn't to say she won't be raped, or talk about it, simply that I don't believe it happened. Enough people do though to make it worth considering.

I don't want to talk for Quitch, but I was under the impression that this thread was simply about Imoen's sexual orientation, not about if she should have a romance with the PC, there is another thread for that. Reading through this thread again, it seem to me that most people read the question as "What kind of Romance do you want to have with Imoen".

Indeed, there is an entirely seperate thread for the discussion of PC/Imoen romance. This thread is simply for the purposes of defining an element of Imoen's character.

[Theodur]

So, did I miss something? When you say she was not raped, do you have a good source? I'd interested to know.

This is one of those things where you can never know for sure, the game wasn't planned in that detail. Bioware sat down and decided that Irenicus did "nasty things" to Imoen, and that's as micro as it got. However, the lead designer, Dave Gaider, agrees with me on this (posted to IEEAIS during the early Ascension days).

That isn't to say she won't be raped, or talk about it, simply that I don't believe it happened. Enough people do though to make it worth considering.

I don't think that Irenicus is capable of commiting an act of rape. He's curse has stripped him of all emotions and as far as I see that includes any sexual stimulations as well - he is not able to perform the act physically, that's what I'm trying to say. He brought those dryads thinking they could force the stimulation and arouse the emotions in him, but it abviously did not work. Nah, if Imoen was raped in the dungeon, then not by Jon-Jon.

[Littiz]

I tried, but I simply can't keep remaining silent upon readin' about "open minded-ness" over and over.

There are a zillion comments in this thread implying that a person is somehow "appreciable" because he/she is "curious and open minded", and someone who's able to feel the True, Purest Love is able to feel it despite sex, race, age and ...bla bla bla.
Well, that kind of love it's not BETTER than mine. It's only different.
I can feel love for a person... affection, closeness.. friendship! Without feeling the necessity to touch/penetrate his body (desires that I, personally, can't feel for a male).
I can have the thing separated from sex. While this supposed "open minded-ness" seem to state that as soon as one feels something for another person, he/she should be ready to rush in bed with that one.
Is that "open minded-ness"?!! I'd rather call it sex-slavery.

Before the whole forum starts to flame me, CONSIDER: who's being offensive?
I say: people have different tastes and inclinations in every field of life.
TASTES. No moral values, no ethical progress tied with them. Tastes!
It doesn't bother me if one has different tastes than mine.
It does bother me if one says his/her tastes are better, more profound and more motivated than mine.
Peace

[Luvian]

I tried, but I simply can't keep remaining silent upon readin' about "open minded-ness" over and over.

There are a zillion comments in this thread implying that a person is somehow "appreciable" because he/she is "curious and open minded", and someone who's able to feel the True, Purest Love is able to feel it despite sex, race, age and ...bla bla bla.
Well, that kind of love it's not BETTER than mine. It's only different.
I can feel love for a person... affection, closeness.. friendship! Without feeling the necessity to touch/penetrate his body (desires that I, personally, can't feel for a male).
I can have the thing separated from sex. While this supposed "open minded-ness" seem to state that as soon as one feels something for another person, he/she should be ready to rush in bed with that one.
Is that "open minded-ness"?!! I'd rather call it sex-slavery.

Before the whole forum starts to flame me, CONSIDER: who's being offensive?
I say: people have different tastes and inclinations in every field of life.
TASTES. No moral values, no ethical progress tied with them. Tastes!
It doesn't bother me if one has different tastes than mine.
It does bother me if one says his/her tastes are better, more profound and more motivated than mine.
Peace  

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and it's as good as anyon else's, but we are not in this thread to discuss our personal opinion on the nature of love and relationship, we are here do discuss those of Imoen.

This is also not about how we wish Imoen to be, but about how we think she is, there is a difference between the two.

[Theodur]

I don't think that Irenicus is capable of commiting an act of rape. He's curse has stripped him of all emotions and as far as I see that includes any sexual stimulations as well - he is not able to perform the act physically, that's what I'm trying to say. He brought those dryads thinking they could force the stimulation and arouse the emotions in him, but it abviously did not work. Nah, if Imoen was raped in the dungeon, then not by Jon-Jon.

Well, he tried it with the dryads, and from that conversation, he tried it with Imoen. Maybe there was no penetration, but I'm sure he touched her. Someone willing to rape your mind and soul wouldn't mind raping your body.

And if he couldn't do it himself and felt like using sexual abuse for his little test, he could have asked one of his guards.

But it's not important, really. Since the only this dialog as proof, it's only a matter of personal opinion. Personaly, I think she was raped.

Ask yourself one question - what would Irenicus gain by raping Imoen. He can't feel any pleasure from the act as he has no emotions. Do so to only demonstrate his total dominance and almighty-ness? I don't think that is important to Irenicus - he is cold, calculative and he conducts his experiments in a scientifical way. The reaction of the test subjects is of no importance to him whatsoever, unless they die prematurely... He doesn't make his victims suffer or undergo torture because of his pleasure, rather than only to reach the goals of the experiment. That said, if raping Imoen could be a part of the experiment - well, I still think that even in that case Irenicus *himself* couldn't do that.

Btw, I always considered Jaheira's "I have been spared any serious mistreatment" line as an indication of the opposite. So it just shows how a simple line of written dialogue could be interpreted in more than one way.

[Rassadihn]

So, in conclusion.  Hetero, Homo, or Bi? Well, I see her as either a very open minded and possibly bi-curious hetero, or as a bisexual leaning a little more on the Hetero side.

Could you assign percentages?

I'm sorry, I'll shut up now.

[Littiz]

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and it's as good as anyon else's

Sorry pal, it's not an opinion, it is a FACT, and it's your fault if you don't see it.
Before you can debate about any argument, you have to agree on basic FACTS.
Since people here negate FACTS (and the trend seems to survive) any debate about Imoen or any other argument is WORTHLESS.
This is why I stopped to talk about the topic already once.

I am *OFFENDED* by positions like yours.
People like you (it seems, if not I refer to others who posted here) continually state that their love can be so Pure and Deep that they are uninterested in the loved one's gender.
Good, but, if their love is so Pure and Ethereal and suffices to them, why don't they spend their whole life with the loved ones WITHOUT having sex? They're not *forced* to do homosexual sex.
If you freely decide to have sex with that person, you don't do it for your superior morality, you do it because you enjoy it. Your TASTES are such that you may consider physically pleasant having sex with one of your gender.
If NOT, your Pure Love could still tie you to the loved one, but you'd avoid sex, which would serve only for pleasure, being even impossible to generate kids.

So it's only a matter of tastes.
You're not BETTER than me. You just follow your tastes, like me.
Counter this reasonment if you can.

[Longinus]

Edit: Sexual attraction decides whom we love.

[Riona]

Imoen's sexuality, Hetero, Homo or Bi?

That's a good question.

Imoen has always been playfull and curious, she was always where she should not be, doing what she should not do,... She read Gorion's letter, followed you without permission, ... and as chaotic good thief, she certainly does not care for society, chaotic god people dislike conformity social conventions.

Actually she is Neutral Good, not Chaotic Good.

But my female half-elven fighter/mage was Chaotic Good, and she was still heterosexual.

[Riona]

Well, he tried it with the dryads, and from that conversation, he tried it with Imoen. Maybe there was no penetration, but I'm sure he touched her. Someone willing to rape your mind and soul wouldn't mind raping your body.

And if he couldn't do it himself and felt like using sexual abuse for his little test, he could have asked one of his guards.

But it's not important, really. Since the only this dialog as proof, it's only a matter of personal opinion. Personaly, I think she was raped.

Actually, I know the conversation with the Dryads isn't proof of anything, because I just played through that part yesterday.

The dryads mention, among other things, that they were Irenicus's concubines. So it is fair to assume he tried to have sex with them. The dryads then procede to make an assumption and say to Imoen, "He did these things to you too?"

Imoen doesn't give any answer to this question; she doesn't say, "Yes...yes...he *raped* me" or "I know what it felt like too...he touched me in the same way..." She doesn't actually confirm what the dryads say. The dryads make an assumption, and Imoen just doesn't address it. Just because the dryads assume Imoen had the same things happen to her as happened to them doesn't mean that actually happened. It is true that Imoen was mistreated but there is no proof at all in the game that she was actually raped.

As it happens, I don't believe she was actually raped, myself. Tortured? Abused? Scarred? Yes, and there is proof. Raped? No proof.

[Longinus]

Chaotic good people rule. Nothing beats being a good person in your own way.

[Jinnai]

Chaotic good people rule. Nothing beats being a good person in your own way.

no, an insane kender does

[Mikka]

Littiz, I find *your* positions offensive.
Right now, your outright attacking people who have done nothing to you.
Personally? Sex doesn't matter to me. Perhaps that's due to events in my past, perhaps it doesn't. Believe it or not, there are people out there that are attracted to people not caring about any sexual part in it. I don't *need* sex to be attracted to someone. Does that make my love more pure or ethernal then yours? How the hell should I know? Love itself is pure. Is sex pure? Depends on who you talk to.
I don't consider any point of love more 'pure' then any other.
I do admire people who are attracted to both genders, and who do not let sex have an impact on their choices. But I don't think their love is more pure then anyone elses.
You keep accusing people of not being better then you. No one has *said* they were better then you. Now, you can stand on your moral ground and proclaim that no one is better then you and all that. Personally, I think that makes you seem a bit egoistical, but you can do what you want.


There is no proof of Imoen's sexuality. And that's what we're talking about, right? Not whether someones love is more pure then anyone elses, or anything of that.
There is no evidence.
We know that Imoen can find females beautiful from the dryad dialog. That doesn't mean that she's bisexual or homosexual, but it also doesn't mean she's straight.
There's no proof either way.
That's the point of this conversation. Not 'I wish she was this way so my character could date her/couldn't date her/it would fit with my moral upbringing/because it makes more sense'. This is 'what do you think her sexuality is?'.
No one is ever going to agree on one choice, that's for sure. But it's getting sort of silly to see arguements like 'she should be this because she's openminded' and 'she should be that because it's more probable'.
Alright?

[Luvian]

Wait... is this the Imoen Relationship forum, or did I stumble in General Discussion without knowing it?

QUOTE (Theodur)
Ask yourself one question - what would Irenicus gain by raping Imoen...

As I said, this can only be based on personal opinion. What's the point of arguing about this? It's not even on topic.

Quote (Rassadihn)
Could you assign percentages?

I'm sorry, I'll shut up now.

How about joining the discussion instead of making some smartass comment?

Quote (Littiz)

Sorry pal, it's not an opinion, it is a FACT, and it's your fault if you don't see it.
Before you can debate about any argument, you have to agree on basic FACTS.
Since people here negate FACTS (and the trend seems to survive) any debate about Imoen or any other argument is WORTHLESS...

Heh, first of all, your opinion is just that, an opinion. Your personal preferences are not facts. You know, maybe all the other people on this forum are not really negating facts, could it be that you simply don't know the difference between facts and opinions?

Quote (Littiz)
I am *OFFENDED* by positions like yours.
People like you (it seems, if not I refer to others who posted here) continually state that their love can be so Pure and Deep that they are uninterested in the loved one's gender.
Good, but, if their love is so Pure and Ethereal and suffices to them, why don't they spend their whole life with the loved ones WITHOUT having sex? They're not *forced* to do homosexual sex.

You would have to be a psychic to know my opinion on this subject, as I have not mentioned it. And why would they spend their whole life without having sex if they like each other? What's wrong with enjoying sex? The way you say it, it seem to me that you consider homosexual sex to be something bad, or at the very least not as good as hetero sex. "Why should they have homosexual sex if they can avoid it" is what I see you as saying in that post.

Quote (Littiz)

If you freely decide to have sex with that person, you don't do it for your superior morality, you do it because you enjoy it. Your TASTES are such that you may consider physically pleasant having sex with one of your gender.
If NOT, your Pure Love could still tie you to the loved one, but you'd avoid sex, which would serve only for pleasure, being even impossible to generate kids.

So it's only a matter of tastes.
You're not BETTER than me. You just follow your tastes, like me.
Counter this reasonment if you can.

Duh! If course someone who would be willing to have sex with someone else would do it because he would like it. If it would make him feel sick he wouldn't do it.

Of course, it's a matter of tastes, and guess what? Tastes are personal opinions, not facts.

And it's strange, I saw no one here implying that they had a superior morality or better tastes. I even said your opinion is as good as mine.

Quote (Riona)
...

You are right, she is neutral good.

"But my female half-elven fighter/mage was Chaotic Good, and she was still heterosexual."
And your point is? Sexual attraction is not determined by aligment alone.

"Actually, I know the conversation with the Dryads isn't proof of anything, because I just played through that part yesterday..."

They also give no proof that she was not raped. As I said twice already, it's only a matter of personal opinion. I believe she was, you believe she was not. There is nothing else to add to this off topic subject.

Quote (Mikka)

There is no proof of Imoen's sexuality. And that's what we're talking about, right? Not whether someones love is more pure then anyone elses, or anything of that.
There is no evidence.
We know that Imoen can find females beautiful from the dryad dialog. That doesn't mean that she's bisexual or homosexual, but it also doesn't mean she's straight.
There's no proof either way.
That's the point of this conversation. Not 'I wish she was this way so my character could date her/couldn't date her/it would fit with my moral upbringing/because it makes more sense'. This is 'what do you think her sexuality is?'.
No one is ever going to agree on one choice, that's for sure. But it's getting sort of silly to see arguements like 'she should be this because she's openminded' and 'she should be that because it's more probable'.
Alright?

Did you read the first post on this thread? Quitch especially said that there was no proof either way, but he wanted our opinion, and I quote: "I don't doubt that people have strong views on the matter, so express them here. Some sort of explanation for your view is, as ever, superior to the choice alone."

Why is it that you are entitled to say your opinion, But others are not?

[Mikka]

Um, when did I say you weren't allowed to post your opinion?
Could you please point this out to me?
I would appreciate it.



In fact, I sort of encouraged people to post their opinion. That is the whole POINT of this thread. I'm encouraging people NOT however to post things that have already been gone over around six times and that there's no proof behind.
Comments like 'She should be gay because she's open minded' or 'She should be straight because she's already in a minority' are pointless. She should NOT be anything. She should be Imoen.
Being in a minority or being open minded has nothing to do with sexuality. Trying to relate them is pointless.
Looking at her personality, her dialog in the game, and whatever and using that to form an opinion is what this thread is here for. Picking up random things and trying to relate them is not.
"I think Imoen is preppy, because she likes the color pink. Only preppy people like the color pink."
"I think Imoen likes to swim, because she has a scar on her face, and people with scars on their face always like swimming."
See how pointless that sounds?
That's what the comments that have been like, and it's sort of redudant.

[Luvian]

I guess I misunderstood your post, it's the "We know that Imoen can find females beautiful from the dryad dialog. That doesn't mean that she's bisexual or homosexual, but it also doesn't mean she's straight." part that confused me, as I think it at least prove she is open minded enough to comment on the physical appearance of members of the same sex. I know lots of people who would never even consider doing that.

I also disagree with you about being open minded not having an effect on her sexual orientation. If she was an homophobe, she would obviously not be bi or homosexual. And if she was a prude, it would also have a huge effect on her personality. She is not any of those, so to me, it mean she is open minded, and it has a huge effect on her opinion toward sex and love in general.

Beside that, yes, I agree with you.