397 replies to this topic

[Althernai]

What about their victims? What about justice? What about fairness???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What about Good? By redeeming a villain, you give him/her a chance to atone for their crimes. If you can convince them to do so, they will help a lot more people than they would if you simply kill them. Is an abstract ideal worth depriving the world of kindness?

I am not suggesting that we let them go free without any punishment and any assurance that they will not continue on their previous path. But if you can truly redeem someone, don't you think their conscience will be more of a torture than any you can inflict? Also, you can set them working on correcting the things they've done that can be corrected (obviously, murder and the like cannot -- but they can reduce the suffering they've caused).

[dorotea]

Where do you get this from? Is there some dialogue I've missed in my 20 replays of BG2 that shows Ellesime to be a lying, scheming, power-hungry seductress? Or am I misreading Cersei?

I don't think the number of replays has much to do with it, really. I might have had 5 or 6 , not counting every time I went through her dream scenes (just to see how they are rendered). I understand pretty well why did she turn out this way - Bio need a motivation for 'generic' PC (including selfish, power hungry, evil one). Thus she is deliberatly misleading, pushing the PC to get angry at their 'stolen power' being used to destroy her kingdom... But the whole intonation of these scenes... well, she left me cold to her plight. She sounds very much as a ruthless manipulator. Later on, her insistence 'you must kill him quickly' - why? Before he had a chance to talk and explain what had really happened? The whole secrecy surrounding the Exiles... It reminded me heavily of Cersei's dealings with her men - her brother, her husband her son... And the whole concept of stripping your lover of his soul 'out of spiritually high regard'... well when I first heard it I could not believe my ears. I seriously hated Irenicus through the entire plot - right until that very moment. Shrug. We have been through this many times before, and I am not going to let my personal concept of the Ellesime's character affect the LR mod, so no need to 're-educate' me on Elle's virtues. But she sounds false and shallow to me...

[Althernai]

Erm...Martin is much more complex, since every character feels very  differently in a different situation:

I think you mentioned every situation except the one I was thinking of. I meant Robert talking about how he only killed Rhaegar once. It seemed to me that he could have killed him ten times and it would not have made him any happier -- Lyanna would be equally dead.

Sansa is...well, sansish

Can I have a definition?

[Althernai]

Thus she is deliberatly misleading, pushing the PC to get angry at their 'stolen power' being used to destroy her kingdom... But the whole intonation of these scenes... well, she left me cold to her plight. She sounds very much as a ruthless manipulator.

Hmm... but how does she actually deceive you? Everything she says and shows is true. That she desperately needs your help does not invalidate this.

Later on, her insistence 'you must kill him quickly' - why? Before he had a chance to talk and explain what had really happened? The whole secrecy surrounding the Exiles... It reminded me heavily of Cersei's dealings with her men - her brother, her husband her son...

I see your point. I never liked the elves for that... bloody fools set a vengeful archmage and his soon-to-be-a-vampire sister loose and don't even bother to warn anyone about it. However, I am not sure Ellesime alone is to blame -- the elves seem to dislike discussing this in any case.

And the whole concept of stripping your lover of his soul 'out of spiritually high regard'... well when I first heard it I could not believe my ears.

I got the impression that she meant for him to redeem himself (to earn his way back to Suldanesselar and elf-hood). It was the only way not to have him killed outright. I can't really prove this though, so I suppose you could be right.

[dorotea]

I still say that Jon was aptly redeemed by the fiends that drug him into the pit.. karmic irony and all'a that. Redemption is meant as a second chance, which he had and wasted. It's ironic you all but condemn the other one who tried to redeem Jon.

It is a matter of personal interpretation, I think. I can hardly call stripping someone of his soul an attempt at 'redemption', as in order to repent (in my humble opinion) one needs to have something that would allow them to *feel empathy* - ie compare their own plight to that of others they hurt. The main trait of Irenicus in his final state when we meet him (as given to us by dryads) is that he is 'dead inside' and unable to feel love, compassion, remorse etc. Now if he is stripped of these feeling (by virtue of being soulless) - how the heck he is supposed to feel remorse?


As for the comment about pit fiends - yeah, that was the scene that triggered the entire process of writing/coding the first Redemption mod and his new epilogue... karmic irony and all that...

[Thorium Dragon]

I voted for Melissan, simply because I think her character remains largely unexplored.

[Laufey]

Chuckle - the poll only allows for 10 lines, and I was aiming for more npc choices.
As for 'redeeming' == lame I agree with it myself, but with this second line that you added. I was really really upset with the way ToB handled Sarevok... I fact until I started working on my first mod and Ascension came out I never even saw his epilogue so disturbed I was by the whole 'turn to the good side at my will'
business...

Sarevok's in game redemption could certainly have been handled better...and likely would have been, if Bioware had done it in a full game rather than an expansion pack.

I think that for me the important thing is that real redemption comes from within. It isn't something that somebody else, such as the PC can *make* a person do, he has to want it for himself. It will be difficult, it will be painful, and it has to be that in order to be worth something.

[Laufey]

Heh, maybe Nalia should be in that poll too, she seems to be going on her way to corrupting herself, with her outlook of "I need lots of power to help the poor"

*POOF*
Nalia: Huh? Who are you?
Satan: Oh, I'm just a random red guy with a goatee, goat legs, a tail and horns. Hey I heard you say you need power if you want to help the poor.
Nalia: Yes! I need to have power because no-one will listen to me otherwise..
Satan: Ah, well, take this cloak, it boosts your Charisma by 5!
Nalia: Really? Hey, there aren't any side effects are there?
Satan: (Other than making you unrepentantly evil, no) Nope, no side-effects at all, have fun helping those poor paupers! See you soon! (Yesss in hell you stupid bitch, hahaha)
*POOF*

LOL! You know, this is something I find very amusing about ToB Nalia, myself. I'd say she is definitely in danger of corruption, as opposed to redemption, and it would have been very interesting if it was a real possibility, I think.

[Laufey]

9. Melissan... not really developed enough for me to say anything about her. Just stick to killing her, she used to be a priestess of Bhaal anyway, so she's always been an evil bitch.

Always? From the moment she was born?

I would say, definitely not. I don't think anybody is born evil (unless we're talking about some kind of demonic creature.) So yes, I think a Melissan redemption is theoretically possible, but I think it would be very hard to actually incorporate into the game. After all, the entire ToB plot leads up to killing her. And also, she isn't really given any character development, so there's not much to go on. For a credible redemption, you'd need to supply her with some kind of motivation.

[Sav]

Thanks, nice to see some more people noticing Nalia's road to corruption, maybe her epilogue should've been that she was decieved into doing something similar to what I said. She's not wise enough to gain a seat on the Council of Six. She may know her maths but she doesn't know where to use it properly (I mean, she's intelligent, but very unwise) .

About Melissan, maybe I should have replaced always been an evil bitch with probably chosen to be an evil bitch for a large part of her life since people seem to choose to take my words for what they say rather than using any common sense :| Ofcourse, any tragedy could have happened to turn her into what she is.

But, if there is a Melissan redemption, by the end of the game you could end up with Good Sarevok, Good Irenicus and Good Melissan. All your enemies which others considered irredeemable have been redeemed. It seems a bit too fantastic, even for a fantasy game. In ToB when Melissan was revealed as the enemy I was like "Oh, okay" - I was more shocked when Aribeth betrayed Neverwinter, and that's saying something. My point being that shows how she wasn't very much developed.

Think Hitler as a social worker in Jewish community. Does it work for you?

Well, apparantly, Hitler had a bit of Jewish blood in him, from way back in his ancestory. So it might work .

[Laufey]

Thanks, nice to see some more people noticing Nalia's road to corruption, maybe her epilogue should've been that she was decieved into doing something similar to what I said. She's not wise enough to gain a seat on the Council of Six. She may know her maths but she doesn't know where to use it properly (I mean, she's intelligent, but very unwise) .

*grin* Very much agreed. I've gone from disliking Nalia to being pretty fond of her, but no, wisdom isn't her strength, even if she has a high intelligence. I can easily see her succumbing to an 'ends justify the means' argument.

But, if there is a Melissan redemption, by the end of the game you could end up with Good Sarevok, Good Irenicus and Good Melissan. All your enemies which others considered irredeemable have been redeemed. It seems a bit too fantastic, even for a fantasy game. In ToB when Melissan was revealed as the enemy I was like "Oh, okay" - I was more shocked when Aribeth betrayed Neverwinter, and that's saying something. My point being that shows how she wasn't very much developed.

It might be a bit much, perhaps, all of them at the same time. As you say, Melissan isn't a well developed character, so I think it would be very hard to make players care about her enough. You'd need to supply her with a proper personality, for one thing. Even Noober had more of that, I think.

[Hendryk]

Adding Melisan is simple. Put her in Trademeet. Logically, she'd have been engaged in rounding up Bhaalspawn during SoA. So, she'd been circling around Viekang, trying to approach him in a way that wouldn't terrify him into one of his 'lightning' escapes. The PC shows up and does that anyway, so Mel just switches targets.

As to *why* she'd join, logically, she should just cut the PC's throat at the first rest and have done with it. Since that wouldn't make much of a mod, she'd need a reason to want to size the PC up. Perhaps she is just a little uncomfortable at how powerful some of her present allies are and wants the PC in reserve as an assassin; someone to undo Yaga-Shura's protections at the least. If she sticks around long enough to see Irenicus steal the PC's soul - well, that would be very unwelcome from her pov. Without knowing what he intended, a mage as powerful as Irenicus could still upset her plans entirely. Then, when she learns that Jon intends to become a god, she'd get REALLY upset. A god with some of the Bhaal essence at his command might drain the Throne away from her entirely. For sure it wouldn't be easy making him give it up. So she'd have a lovely ToL speech of the "More depends upon this than you can yet conceive, CHARNAME.." variety.

[Althernai]

Are you sure you can truly redeem someone once they past certain plank of crime and certain dehumanisation level? Think Hitler as a social worker in Jewish community. Does it work for you?

Past a certain point, probably not. However, I cannot say where exactly such a point would be. You run into continuity arguments very quickly. For example, if Sarevok could be redeemed, I don't see why it should be impossible for Jon or Mel. It's just that the situation within the game never arises.

[Laufey]

Adding Melisan is simple. Put her in Trademeet. Logically, she'd have been engaged in rounding up Bhaalspawn during SoA. So, she'd been circling around Viekang, trying to approach him in a way that wouldn't terrify him into one of his 'lightning' escapes. The PC shows up and does that anyway, so Mel just switches targets.

As to *why* she'd join, logically, she should just cut the PC's throat at the first rest and have done with it. Since that wouldn't make much of a mod, she'd need a reason to want to size the PC up. Perhaps she is just a little uncomfortable at how powerful some of her present allies are and wants the PC in reserve as an assassin; someone to undo Yaga-Shura's protections at the least. If she sticks around long enough to see Irenicus steal the PC's soul - well, that would be very unwelcome from her pov. Without knowing what he intended, a mage as powerful as Irenicus could still upset her plans entirely. Then, when she learns that Jon intends to become a god, she'd get REALLY upset. A god with some of the Bhaal essence at his command might drain the Throne away from her entirely. For sure it wouldn't be easy making him give it up. So she'd have a lovely ToL speech of the "More depends upon this than you can yet conceive, CHARNAME.." variety.

Oh, nice points! Yes, I suppose that would work, as long as the writer developed Melissan properly as a character. How would you handle ToB though, if Melissan is already in your party? It seems to me that a lot would need to be rewritten and changed.

[Laufey]

Are you sure you can truly redeem someone once they past certain plank of crime and certain dehumanisation level? Think Hitler as a social worker in Jewish community. Does it work for you?

Past a certain point, probably not. However, I cannot say where exactly such a point would be. You run into continuity arguments very quickly. For example, if Sarevok could be redeemed, I don't see why it should be impossible for Jon or Mel. It's just that the situation within the game never arises.

*nods* Very much agree with this. I think there is a very important difference between 'extremely difficult to redeem' and 'impossible to redeem'. I would for example put Melissan in the 'extremely difficult' group, but I don't think it's outright impossible for any sane human being to change. Granted, in many cases it will never happen, but that isn't the same thing as it being impossible. For one thing, and much as you say, where should the line be drawn? Just when do you become 'too evil'?

One good example that occurs to me is the robber hanging next to Jesus on the cross, who repented at death's door, and was granted forgiveness for that. I believe that story is meant to illustrate that it is never too late, as long as you have the will to change.

[Caedwyr]

I'd imagine that Mellisan would have an easier time in getting the PC to do as she wishes, if she were already in CHARNAME's party. Also, her betrayal could be written to come as a greater suprise. Imagine, the party goes to the Throne of Bhaal, to defeat whoever is pulling all the strings, and has Melisan leave the party on arrival and merge with the essence pillar.

It would still require her to be the villian, but she could be written in a way that would come across as a more complex character. Since you picked her up in SoA, there could even be a false redemption (if she reveals that she has an evil side)

[Laufey]

I'd imagine that Mellisan would have an easier time in getting the PC to do as she wishes, if she were already in CHARNAME's party. Also, her betrayal could be written to come as a greater suprise. Imagine, the party goes to the Throne of Bhaal, to defeat whoever is pulling all the strings, and has Melisan leave the party on arrival and merge with the essence pillar.

It would still require her to be the villian, but she could be written in a way that would come across as a more complex character. Since you picked her up in SoA, there could even be a false redemption (if she reveals that she has an evil side)

Yes, I agree that she'd have an easier time of it. What I meant was, that since in the original ToB you only meet her in scripted events in Saradush etc, you'd need to rewrite those. So, for story reasons I think it would be great, I'm just pointing out what I see as technical problems.

[Caedwyr]

Yep, then there is the whole problem of Melisan's forced exposition in the pocket plane, courtesy of the solar.