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Mary Sues (Again)


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#1 Kulyok

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 10:03 PM

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1) human fighter type - full of contradictions (principled but easy-going, disciplined but passionate, independent but considerate, thorough but not brutal, strong but not stupid)


Hmm.

Edited by Kulyok, 26 April 2007 - 10:03 PM.


#2 berelinde

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 02:30 AM

Kulyok, on Apr 27 2007, 02:03 AM, said:

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1) human fighter type - full of contradictions (principled but easy-going, disciplined but passionate, independent but considerate, thorough but not brutal, strong but not stupid)


Hmm.


Didn't read the whole article. Title says it all.

You can tell me if it's a Sue when it's done. That'll definitely be sometime before the next ice age. Gavin isn't a Stu (or I don't think he is, anyway).

Sue characteristic list
Overpowered? If I go with an unkitted fighter, not likely. If I go with a ranger, possibly, but it's a powerful class.

Idealized personality? Nobody's perfect. She won't be, either. But I prefer to let the player find out about the flaws along the way. I'm going with a fairly uncomplicated class, so if she's ever going to amount to anything more than a sword jock with a steel bra, she's going to need a bit of complexity to her personlity or she'd have 'em yawning halfway through chapter 2.

Too pretty? Depends. Possibly. I don't see the point in saddling an NPC with an ugly portrait, though. Hard to imagine any player who would willingly romance an NPC whose portrait was unapealing.

Self-referential? :lol: Next question?

Overpowered equipment? Nowhere near there yet. Maybe a +1 weapon, but I wouldn't bank on it. Likely splint armor, but nothing magical.

Steals the spotlight from the PC or the other NPCs? I try to make sure that doesn't happen, but as it is a judgment call, it is possible. No big quests, or ones that supercede the PCs. I hate it when you have to drop everything and high-tail it off to do something for a particular NPC or he'll be gone 4EV3R. If it starts to creep in, I hope somebody would let me know.

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#3 Kulyok

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 04:18 AM

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As for Mary Sue, in my opinion she is probably the worst insult one could use against a modder/mod, as it directly states that the modder built an invincible perfect fantasy wish fulfillment instead of a balanced, strong, independent character, and failed the basic precept of group storytelling: add without taking over.


Yes, it is the worst offence ever against two lines of text, I am sure.

And I suspect you miss a point: "Mary Sue and Imoen too" - berelinde provided a perfect, word to word characterization of a character without notable flaws - Imoen.

#4 berelinde

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 05:04 AM

Edit: darned duplicate posting.

Edited by berelinde, 28 April 2007 - 05:06 AM.

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#5 berelinde

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 05:05 AM

Kulyok, on Apr 28 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

And I suspect you miss a point: "Mary Sue and Imoen too" - berelinde provided a perfect, word to word characterization of a character without notable flaws - Imoen.


Depends on who you ask. Some people feel that she does steal the show. Others would disagree.

Imoen suffers the fate of every BioWare NPC: under-developed personality. She was meant to be the chipper best friend who stands by you, no matter what. She satisfies that condition, even if she does so in a way that might annoy some players.

Don't know if I can apply the same tests to BioWare NPCs that I would apply to mod NPCs. BG1 NPC Project aside, modders generally don't develop NPCs as part of a large cooperative effort. They are not collecting a paycheck to write, nor do they have to meet any deadlines unless they impose them upon themselves. They are free to develop their vision independent of another's supervision, nor do they have to justify their work to a boss. Given these conditions, there is no excuse for writing a Sue.

It can happen, nevertheless. You sit there with the game D files open, and you see all the places you would love to give your NPC an interjection, because you've probalby thought long and hard about what your NPC is like, and you already know what he's going to say. So you write 400 interjections, and suddenly, you find your NPC never shuts up. Back to the drawing board. Or you want the PC to have a chance to see the NPCs whole story unfold, so you make sure that the player understands that if the NPC is ever dropped from the party, they are gone forever, or give them a quest that will take the entire game to finish. Ick. As for a Sueish race/class/personality, well, all I can say in defense of that is that everybody wants their NPC to be special. And what says "special" like a half-drow half-avariel half-gold dragon paladin-sorceress who is perfect in every way?

So how do you avoid it? Try to keep it real, I guess. No, your NPC isn't sent by the gods, sorry. No, your NPC doesn't always know the answer. Yeah, your NPC is allowed to look foolish sometimes or make bad decisions every once in a while. Oh, and it's probably a good idea to avoid subjects where you personally hold strong opinions.

If ever anybody hears me say I'm going to write a mod for Rita the studious alchemist, send for the straightjacket. Unless it was a joke mod.

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#6 cmorgan

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 05:58 AM

Hey - Rita sounds kinda cute - does she make magical items and potions? :naughty: (Kellen, thanks for the compliment, but in general I write dialogue like I have written things in this post - way to wordy, rather convoluted, and with too many examples :) )

Kulyok, I think it must have sounded like I was saying that *your* specific use of Mary Sue in this instance was a horrible insult to *berelinde's* idea... (it sounded differently in my head, but then, there's a lot of echoey space up there, to it might get lost in translation).

I was saying that *in general*, the Mary Sue/Stu label, which Kulyok linked for clarity and reference, is about the ugliest thing one could call a mod or a modder's work; it means the person is really creating a personal fantasy figure and forcing the player to see things their way without truly understanding the story and its boundaries. I don't think anyone can have two lines of any mod or conversation create Mary Sue; Mary Sues are wholesale and are cumulative sums of an entire character. No one sets out to write Stu. He is the writer's well known and hard to avoid ever present distraction - a minor character who starts taking on a life of his own, running roughshod over plot, internal consistency, and plot focus. The reason it is insulting is not because the character is bad, or the coding is bad - they may be top-notch and awesome. The reason it is insulting is that it says "you the modder were not strong enough a writer to build an internally consistent character who fits into this plot and adds to the sum instead of distracting; you were weak, and hijacked the plot and my character for your own use."

I do think we may disagree (in a friendly way) completely on Imoen, all three of us, from eachother (Kulyok, berelinde, cmorgan). I definitely don't see Imoen as a Mary Sue; and I don't see her as an undeveloped character. I see her as the greatest example of a (sorry, I have to go to Star Trek for reference) Red Shirt Plot Device. "OK, how can we move the plot forward without taking the PC over and doing a cutscene? Quick, bring in Imoen, slap an invincible belt around her, then spirit her away, leaving her miles behind the party when she eventually rejoins!") Until I played The BG1 NPC Project, she was a plot device hung around my neck. After I played The BG1 NPC Project, she was my best friend/little sister, and I love her as dearly as one can love a fictional character without having to explain to a therapist; now the Plot Device is real enough to me that I will include her in every game as much as I can, even though there are good playing reasons to take more powerful or versitile (and less damaged) NPCs along for the ride.

And now, to quote Miloch (who knows - we may just have to collaborate on the first ever Rated X Dryad Companion For The BG Saga [I hear Oblivion has skins for that sort of thing] - with a secret ability to talk her enemies to death!!!) too much talk - I gotta stop chatting and get back to troubleshooting!

Edited by cmorgan, 28 April 2007 - 06:04 AM.


#7 -Domi_Ash-

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 08:25 AM

Well, M-S is such a vague term... and I heard at least one person say that she wished that JC *did* made Kelsey into a Gary-Stu, because it would have been by far more toothy and entertaining character. Plus, I find it is difficult to judge a character from a short write-up. What sounds completely obnoxious and unrealistic, might just turn out fun. Besides, I saw it time and again that people write one thing in their description of the character - and develop something absolutely different. Anyways, I just wanted to wish Berelinde good luck.

#8 berelinde

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 10:22 AM

It's also a question of tastes. Some characteristics scream "Sue" at me, while I can laugh off others. Using some recent examples: when I read about a character with divine stats, it triggers an instant M-S reaction from me, whereas it might not with others. Other's find Imoen's personality and participation as a plot device unbearable, whereas they don't bug me at all.

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#9 -Domi_Ash-

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 10:46 AM

Well, Coran has nerfed stats, but the way he was presented, the last thing I think of him is Mary Sue. In 3rd edition, 'divine' stats stop being anything even noticeable, imo, because they are flexible and there is no upper limit.

And yep, I am one of the people who can't stand Imoen by the vurtue of her being forced down PC's throat. But I have to say that Shandra overshadows Imoen in the 'obnoxious plot device' department, because not only she is rammed down your throat and participates every step of the way, she is also acknowledged by the TWO romantic PC's interests AND her uncle AND a random artist as exceptionally beautiful and desirable lady... er... Not to mention she goes from farmer at level 0 to fighter, level 12 in a second! And from all NPCs who were with the PC MUCH longer than her, she's the one whose opinion matters when PC is accused of mass-murder! Okay, I will have to stop Shandra's rant. But she's the latest char to scream MS to me and make me very, very, *very* annoyed.

#10 GeN1e

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 12:11 PM

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And yep, I am one of the people who can't stand Imoen by the vurtue of her being forced down PC's throat. But I have to say that Shandra overshadows Imoen in the 'obnoxious plot device' department, because not only she is rammed down your throat and participates every step of the way, she is also acknowledged by the TWO romantic PC's interests AND her uncle AND a random artist as exceptionally beautiful and desirable lady... er... Not to mention she goes from farmer at level 0 to fighter, level 12 in a second! And from all NPCs who were with the PC MUCH longer than her, she's the one whose opinion matters when PC is accused of mass-murder! Okay, I will have to stop Shandra's rant. But she's the latest char to scream MS to me and make me very, very, *very* annoyed.

Sorry for being out of topic, but who this Shandra is?

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#11 Kellen

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 12:16 PM

A character from NWN2.

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Shandra Jerro (Neutral Good, Human Fighter)


Mayhaps the Sue rantage could be transferred to a different topic?
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#12 berelinde

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 12:16 PM

NWN2 character?

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#13 -Domi_Ash-

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 02:49 PM

Yep, she is. Don't know if this off-topic or not, but speakinfg of Shandra, I think it is important to make sure that the romanceable character is adjusted to both male and female protagonist, unless s/he is only available to a character s/he can romance. In case of Shandra, her content is designed to attract a male PC, but continously overshadows a female PC. I can testify as a player that this coupled with 'forcing' the character into the party is a *bad* thing.

#14 berelinde

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 03:03 PM

Yeah, I can see where that would be annoying. Nothing quite like getting saddled with somebody who makes you contemplate murder every round. And you probably can't take all her equipment and send her up against the NWN2 equivalent of Firky, can you?

Not such a big worry in BG1 or BG2, though, since NPCs can be murdered, sent against Firky, or just sent away, with the mod never to be reinstalled. With that in mind, it's up to the modder to keep it real.

In any case, I don't think you have anything to worry about. If As-Yet-Unnamed-Female started showing Shandra like tendencies, I'd probably feel the overpowering need to write a cameo appearance where Haldamir just teleported in long enough to run her through, then teleported out.

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#15 Azkyroth

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 03:03 PM

Weird; wonder why it won't let me just start a new topic in moving the posts. O.o

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#16 SConrad

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 03:27 PM

Azkyroth, on Apr 28 2007, 04:03 PM, said:

Weird; wonder why it won't let me just start a new topic in moving the posts. O.o

Very OT: You have to use "Split topic" as opposed to "Move posts".

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#17 -Domi_Ash-

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 05:57 PM

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Nothing quite like getting saddled with somebody who makes you contemplate murder every round. And you probably can't take all her equipment and send her up against the NWN2 equivalent of Firky, can you?


Well, you can take all of her equipment and make her die endlessly, since like in KOTOR the companions get ressurected authomatically if the battle is won, but that's a small reward for having to endure her whining, her blaming the PC for everything that happens to her, while having to rescue her twice, her not trusting PC's abilities at the same time as blaming her for everything, and outright idiocy such as refusing to leave PC's side when she is on a bloody knightly vigil because she can't walk back to the city in the dark (having just showed up unexpectedly after the sunset!!!).... The best part is that she will be permanently killed as the part of the story, so I'm waiting for that moment to throw a party! :cheers:

So, yep, I can nominate Shandra if not as a Mary-Sue at her worst (since I don't know if she was one of the designer's wish-fullfillment things), but as close as it gets and the good example of how not to write NPCs.

Funnily, she's a vanilla Human Fighter.

#18 berelinde

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 07:20 PM

So's Auren Aseph, and neutral good, too, but Auren's about as far from a Sue as it's possible to be. She fits into the story beautifully.

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#19 Menelanna

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 07:25 PM

i usually hate Mary Sues but there is one I am looking forward to cause I think it will be a laugh. That is Stardust (i think that is her name) over at CoM. It is a Mary Sue mod that looks hailarious!

Edited by Menelanna, 28 April 2007 - 07:29 PM.

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#20 berelinde

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 07:52 PM

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that one myself.

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