MG,

As they say, better late than never. I don't know who they are, but that's what they say. And as such, I will loose my commentary.

First, Viga would like to wave and thank you for the cameo. He was quite pleased.

Seoncd, an excellent piece. The little adventure into the sewers. Dran as Aran, very nice. I had a feeling that there was some connetiong there as the training pace picked up. Some good dialogue.

The twist with the kidnapping was oh so delicious, but it did lack in your usual well honed edge. The pacing of the party doesn't seem to get up to the wham you need for the discovery. A little expansion there, some more with the party and its swirl, some crowd reaction to the preventative... that would probably help it I think.

But overall, an amazing piece of work. I'm glad to see it reach its full circle. And I can't wait for the next piece!

VH

I guess one could look at this as 'Hand Cannon Syndrome'

That is, Renal is looking down the barrel of a large gun and its pointed at his head. That is Chloe and her new friends. He wants to save his skin.. yada yada. That could intimidate, but I would agree it doesn't quite fit.... but not in my opinion for the intimidation factor but in the unwillingness to pay. If you hire mercs and don't pay them, you won't get more mercs. At least good ones. That would weaken his position as would his breaking 'business deals'

Now a few of his associates coming to visit later on and trying to get Chloe with some poisoned daggers or such, that would help it out, reinforce it a little.

Just thinking out loud here. Course it never really bothered me when I saw the scene. *shrug*

VH

Okay, we have Renal, the high level leader of an organization, and angry, armed, and extremely quick person with in arms reach. To quaff that potion, he needs to grab said potion, uncork, drink and wait for it to take effect. Call it 5 seconds at best. All someone has to do is unsheath and slice. And I've seen a 70 year old man unsheath a katana so fast I could barely even see it. Chloe's faster and younger. Call that 2-3 seconds. Renal still loses, or at least its real real bad odds.

Also, the backstabbing... to backstab, one must be unobserved to strike. In a combat situation it would not be the easiest to hide in the shadows. Now with magic you can, but that magic can be countered. I mean in the game, you can be standing in plain sight, hit the button and you're hidden which is just more than a little ridiculous. So I doubt that the party, prepared and ready, would be 'backstabbed into ribbons'.

Yes, it probably leads to a bloodbath. But Renal I doubt really wants to die.

This is just my opinion. *shrug* But I do think that the various and sundry opinions have been made and the modmaker had her say, so let's give her a break, huh?

Plasmocat,

Hello and welcome. Have a drink, its on the house. And remember, if you're only going to have one drink, have it after another.

As to your question, we run a very loose ship around here. And we carry a lot of insurance in case we run aground. Which happens around here every once and a while. (It's a good thing this isn't an oil tanker huh?)

But in all seriousness (which I hope we never actually acheive), feel free to be free form about it, provided it follows the simple rules we have listed. So, if you want to write a story about Captain Anomen Deryln of the USS Excelsior or just a very different perspective, feel free. Experiment. Have fun.

For that is what is important, is it not?

And if this makes no sense, feel free to PM me.

Good luck and happy writing!

VH

Kaos,

VigaHrolf here. First, posting is free to anyone who wants to do so. Unless they want to give me money, in which case, I accept. But, as my co-mod is so fond of saying, "Just jump into the pool"

I would add, don't wear cement shoes when you do it.

As to proofreading and such, send MG a PM. She's coordinating that effort.

VH

Indeed. Send it to either of your friendly neighborhood mods and we'll review it. Just nothing that would make the readers of Penthouse Forum jealous, alright?

VH

Since it's been resurrected, I guess I'll weigh in again.

Now, I will admit that some of my arguments are colored in nostalgia.  I've got years of time logged into 2nd edition as opposed to maybe a little under a year for 3rd.  But I also put that in as a marker to show I have played 3rd, as both player and DM.

My groups were generally good groups.  Almost exclusively roleplayers, not so much power munchkins.  But, it didn't take long for that to start to creep in.  It's because the system lends itself IMHO for powergaming.  Paladin thief mages running around blasting things (not that I saw one thankfully)  And I noticed myself falling for it too.. when suddenly you can just start tinkering with everything.  It's a lot of temptation.

However, this is probably one of those items that people love or hate.  Some love it for being able to have whatever you want and others hate it for the same reason.  I felt it cheapened the great classes and powers and I also hated having to be the bad guy and turn down an idea.  *shrug* that's just me.

As to complexity, I think 3rd edition heaped on too much.  The feats (which feats do I have?  Which are operating?), the various armor classes (deflection, base, flatfooted, unarmored), the extra rolls with magical spells, and all the modifiers, well, it dragged a lot of situations out for me as both player and DM.  When you have limited time to play, I want to spend it roleplaying, not rolling dice.  And that's where 3rd edition ticked me off.

And bloody horrible AoO's.  I hate em.  

Finally, on the stats thing... I understand your point about how a 17 means you're 1 point closer to an 18, which means only 4 levels to get there.  But, that also means that for 4 levels, one of the hardest stat combinations to get, a 17, is still only as good as a 16.  And if you have all even numbers, well then that 1 point every four levels is rather worthless until you move up 8 levels.

I like the simplified adjustments (for the most part).  They're a lot easier to deal with than a lot of the stuff out of version 2.  But there weer certain 2nd edition adjustments that were great.  Such as wisdom giving lots of extra spells to clerics (not that the 3rd model is bad) or having your actual weight allowance spelled out for easy reference.  They just took too many of my tables away, tables that simplified things for me.  

Oh and getting rid of exceptional strength is nothing I'm going to complain about.  I liked the bonuses.. but yeah.  (xx) can go away.

Now, this isn't to say that 3rd edition is crap, in case anyone thought I said that.  It isn't bad, it's just... flawed in my opinion.  They made things mroe simple and more complicated at the same time.  More dice rolling is bad.  
Oh well.. continue on.

P.S.:  JPS.. no worries

VH

Stone Wolf,

I think you hit it on the head. They wanted to take a big franchise and just make it entirely interchangable with their d20 game system they've been pushing. And in doing so, I think lost something very vital and special about AD&D. Yes, it as a game system had its flaws, but those gave it is flavor, much like the White Wolf systems or others...

There are pros and cons to both systems, but I think I like 2E a bit better for the simplicity of it. Now some may say that I am obviously smoking something, but let me explain.

In 2nd edition, you did have a lot of numbers you had to figure out, like THACO, AC, all the adjustments and saving throws, but once you did that once, you didn't have to calculate so much on the fly. You just rolled the dice. In 3E you have not just regular AC, but Deflection AC, unarmored AC (for certain spells), and all sorts of weird adjustments. Combat, due to all the feats actually becomes more complex, with more calculation and more modifiers. And don't get me started on Attacks of Opportunity. While it makes sense in some cases, the rules don't in others. A lot of these changes were wrought for realism, but really only added more complexity.

And then there is the Hit points and Attack Bonuses situation. You have creatures with 500 hp and a +45 to hit. That means a player's got to be able to dish out some insane amounts of damage.

And finally, the biggest thing was the discounting of stat points. No adjustments and a 16 and a 17 are effectively the same thing. That sucks in my opinion because a 17 is statistically harder to get than a 16 (6+6+5 as opposed to 6+5+5 or 6+6+4) but it doesn't mean anything. So those stat points you get don't mean much either.

Then there are things I'm ambivalent about, such as having to AIM magical attacks. And having to use the native combat bonuses of your spellcaster (which suck) to do so, effectively limiting his usefulness to anything other than buffing spells or magic missile until he's high high level. While it is A LOT more realistic, it add another roll. And no combat action in my opinion should have more than 2 rolls except in special occaisions. Which it now can (to hit, saves, and damage) At least they should have had a spellcaster attack chart, different from the usual one.

Now, there are some things I like, the higher the number the better the AC (but not all the weird situational stacking rules they have now), improving stat numbers over time, a better skill system (but not the skill point distribution or the distribution across classes: like why do priests and mages only get 2 points per level and wh aren't spot and listen, two basic skills if you ask me, not just general??)

As to the flexibility - I don't like the removal of the stat restrictions because it does cheapen the classes some, now anyone can be a pally or a ranger instead of having to roll well enough to be one. The species restrictions don't bother me as much. But this flexibility, this ability to choose usually leads in one way. MASSIVE UBER POWERGAMING. Which I do in CRPG but I absolutely despise in RPG. At least in 2E it was damn hard to get away with it. Now, you can create UU's uber cheese characters and make em legal. 2E you could allow an elven paladin or a gnome mage fighter or a tiefling or anything, but as a DM you could just say no and have the rules back you up. Now, if someone produces a character that is pure mutated powergamer goodness, if you say no, they can whine and complain about how the rules clearly allow them to do it. It's the reason I stopped DMing.

So, some of the cosmetic stuff was pretty dang good. But the core changes they made in my opinion take away a lot of the difficulty and challenge, that is now replaced with overpowered monsters and the like. If I ever do play again, it will probably be a mutated form of the two.

Okay.. I've rambled long enough.

As to complexity, I think 3rd edition heaped on too much.  The feats (which feats do I have?  Which are operating?), the various armor classes (deflection, base, flatfooted, unarmored), the extra rolls with magical spells, and all the modifiers, well, it dragged a lot of situations out for me as both player and DM.  When you have limited time to play, I want to spend it roleplaying, not rolling dice.  And that's where 3rd edition ticked me off.

Finally, on the stats thing... I understand your point about how a 17 means you're 1 point closer to an 18, which means only 4 levels to get there.  But, that also means that for 4 levels, one of the hardest stat combinations to get, a 17, is still only as good as a 16.  And if you have all even numbers, well then that 1 point every four levels is rather worthless until you move up 8 levels.

Have you ever heard of Chivalry and Sorcery? That was complicated. A beautiful system, but really complicated. Honestly, a lot of gamers simply aren't interested in the challenges of roleplaying. They don't want to invest the time and imagination needed to take average stats and create a truly memorable character.

Happy Trails . . .

Mark

Never heard of it actually.  But really, my experience is limited to D&D and White Wolf, both which have their pluses and minuses.  And as to the challenges of roleplaying, I think the stats things matter on the campaign.  I think the true key is balance, no one character in the group overpowering another.  That's the way to get a good flow and good roleplaying going.  The way to have the most fun, as it is truly the goal, no?

VH

*comes unblocked and sacks UU for a loss of fifteen*

I knew that duct tape was going to make an appearance, and I figured, knowing your mind, you'd manage to beat me to it. You are truly a madman sir. I can but hope to equal your insanity. B)

UU,

After watching my boys blow another game, there isn't anythign quite so soothing to my twisted soul as to read a few UU songs.  (And to sing along.)

(My wife thinks I'm crazy)

(She's right.)

(Course, she knew that and married me, so hey, who's the crazy one!)

As per the usual, MORE.  And oh..

Just in case you need some inspiration.

Jan in a Turnip Named Desire.

Moderators, (Sorry moderators.) are not Gods,

This is actually an untrue statement. Well at least partially untrue. I am, in fact, a god. I am VigaHrolf, God of Paperclips.

(Note: I did not say I was a powerful or important god. Just that I was.)

I have never heard a moderator claim to be perfect. (Although, of course, they are perfect beings.)

This is not entirely true. I am almost perfect. I am only lacking the ability to sleep at work and appear to be productive. Once I acquire this skill, I will, in fact, be perfect.

And for the low low fee of 999 dollars, I will teach anyone else who would be interested in learning this most valuable skill.

Thank you! I'll be here all week! Try the nachos!

VH

We could get a whole series of Jan and his Lady Turnip stories, tales of passion and betrayal, seduction and culinary arts!  And frankly, I don't think the world is ready for that. 

No, certainly isn't...

Thank you, I will be sure to send you the bill for my counseling to rid myself of the nightmares you just bestowed

Anything I can do for the service. However, please note that all bills will be sent to Central Processing, which is currently located in the Marianas Trench. Once they are processed, then and only then can payment be remitted.

And as of yet, we have not developed a vehicle that can transfer the bill to Central Processing. But I have top men on it.

And JPS...

I'm glad sanity kicked in. I really really am.

VH

Why thank you sir. But I do have a question, have you heard Og's "Pretty Mushrooms" story? Why it rivals even Jack Kerowac (sp I know)'s Electric Kool Aid Acid Test!

A few random things:

TCPH's "People to Hate" - where can I find a copy? Not that I really need more help with this, but its always fun to have more sources.

Random historical fact:

"Everyone's Gospel is different--even in the New Testament, there are four recountings of similar events, as told by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. (I think--not familiar with the New Testament.)" - you are right on the official Testaments, but there are believed to be a number of others that didn't make the final editorial cut for the "New Testament." Some were too strange, too goofy, or impossible to verify. Others.. well, others just didn't josh or were redundant. Just an interesting little fun fact.

"And thank you, VH, for your comments. Very much appreciated. And I haven't seen userunfriendly yet. " - you are welcome. And for the safety of all involved, lets make sure UU doesn't see that little bit of inspiration you could possibly have handed him.

We could get a whole series of Jan and his Lady Turnip stories, tales of passion and betrayal, seduction and culinary arts! And frankly, I don't think the world is ready for that.

No, certainly isn't...

VH

Fear and Loathing in the Cricket Field...

Interesting. So what did the cricket bat symbolize? Power? Repression? or is a cricket bat sometimes just a cricket bat?

Interesting piece here.

There is one part that I most certainly agree with. In fact someone should go out there in write it in stone. Or what ever the electronic equivalent would be. You never know when your computer is going to go fritzo, or even worse, the forum or the route there. And you can lose a whole day?s worth of work.

I lost a whole story that way. Was writing it in the message field, posted but my session had expired. And the whole thing went kerflooie. Would have been a funny one too. Oh well.

I also agree very strongly with the waiting period. Its kind of like the reason we have a waiting period for firearms purchases in the US. You don?t the passion of the moment overruling good judgment. I?ve been in the fit of writing and just wanted to post, to get it over with. But everything needs a once over. So that oh, such little things as verbs show up. Verbs are very important. I sometimes forget them. Or have half finished sentences.

Some additions/comments:

As to story types:
Instead of the ?big evil?, I?d call it the classic struggle. That particular type has dominated storytelling since Og told Nod a story about the big rock and the cave bear. (If you haven?t heard it, its really great. Especially the bit about the pointy stick)
Nor do I really think that this type is bland and boring. They can in fact be extremely exciting and rewarding. I am quite fond of the classic struggle, from the Odyssey to Lord of the Rings.
The Humorous ? the kind of funny story that isn?t parody or satire. It?s just supposed to be a fun little tale about some event or happening where the main purpose is to make people laugh. Also known as the extended joke.
The Experimental - in online storyboards and in fanfic, you?ll run into these from time to time. Basically, the author wants to test some aspect of his/her writing skills that so far has been untested. It could be writing a romantic scene, a battle scene or it could be a perspective change, writing in the 1st when you write usually 3rd. Luckily, these are usually predicated by a blurb saying that is experimental.


And one humorous note..
?If your story contains a scene with Jan getting amorous with a turnip, make sure your readers know there?ll be some hortosexual situations in your story.? ? and this.. this is just frightening. I mean.. ye gods. If certain people ever see this.. who knows what madness would be unleashed!! For the love of us all, never say such things again!

Tis very true. Og was not exactly a master of symbolism or of higher themes. He was more, your basic storyteller. And he was quite hungry. And not just for mushrooms.

Hey, smooth talkers always do well, ya know what I mean?

Theo,

As the duly appointed representative of Anti EATCO, I welcome you here, you crazy elf lover.

And its good to see the ol Rush rushing about.  

Course... I do wonder a bit about the box thing going on.... but I'll just leave it at that.

Theo,

Hehee.. nice pic.  I think the box was better though.

And as to druidess and snugglage.. I may be Anti EATCO, but that doesn't mean I don't like elves.  I just don't think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Bey,

Yay!  Back to his Senses.  A truly wonderful piece of writing, if I say so myself.  I remember the first time I read it and I was pleasantly surprised.  And it got better from there.  

And I will also echo Theo in that your portrayal of Valygar brought that character to life for me in a most amazing way.  He went from just the tactiturn guy with the past to a vibrant, interesting and exciting character.  Thanks again!

VH

Ahhh.. another piece of the story about my favorite ranger and Ladies' Man, one Valygar Corthala.

And its quite a piece, and quite a rework. A most impressive improvement. Which is a lot of I words, but hey, I like em. They're... interesting!

I like the Mazzy Valygar scene very much.. it really adds a lot of flavor to the dilemmas and makes it seem all that more real.

And the Tolgerias battle. Verrrrry nice. Very. A nice calculating villain and hey, something from his sidekick! Always a fine and fun thing.

Kudos and glad to see it back!

VH

Bwahahahahahahaha

Kelsey getting chunked after his invention worked! Bwahahahaha!

I loved this story before and I love it even more again. A great and wonderful piece of madness. So many are not immune to the power that is UU. Many have fallen under his dark sway.

Its great, isn't it?

You know this is one of my favourite stories  (beside the OTHER one *poke poke*) and I'm very happy you decided to continue it. 

Well, when you have a tall, powerful, beautiful woman in plate mail weilding a giant sword starts poking you, well, you have to take up the pen again and help her out.

Your paladin is a fascinating character.  The healing sequence and the idea of it is just so very, well...Viga, I guess.  

Bey

Thanks Bey. I do like her a lot and I find her character to be most interesting to play with. Plus, I consider it a good challenge to try and write a good holy knight. And as to the healing, I guess it is a bit in my idiom, eh?

And I had to heal him. I didn't need you coming after me with a pitchfork.

VH