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#41 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 10:44 AM

I am testing the mage battle now... and it is honestly too much for my machine. Xyx is working on the mage scripts. All the mages will be mid level... no 9th level spells at all, but you would be surprised at how much damage 20 mages casting 6th and 7th level spells can do to your party. The slowdown is currently with all the spell animations firing at the same time.... this will be worked on.

Cuv

Hmm. I imagine that my system would have big problems with this too.

Any way to trim the AI & animations by having different spells & scripts for some of the mages? Have a few invoker types with the attack spells. A few summoners calling up help. Abjurer types protecting the attckers & monsters.

I stongly suspect that at least one scroll of protection from magic will get used here when I try this battle out. The thought of 20 mages casting 6th & 7th level spells is nasty!

#42 Quitch

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 10:44 AM

Cuv, which mages are you talking about? Xyx's or yours? They have yours, and see 20 mages firing 20 misleads, followed by 20 graphical spells which remain on screen. It brought my machine to its knees. This is being entirely replaced.

I've yet to see Xyx's in action.

#43 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 03:52 PM

Well I killed Dasypus fair & square. It is interesting. In almost all of my battles with him my fighter types get killed early, but my mages and summons last quite a while.

Anyway I opened the battle with Keldorn summoning a Diva & my sorcerer's chain contingency summoned two Mord's Swords & a Similarcum. I let Dasypus use his first timestop (which he used to take out Anomen, Keldorn, & Mazzy with the Litchify spell) & then it was my turn. I had a timestop of my own and after a few judicious Lower Resistances more Comets, Abi Wiltings, and Magic Misseles than you could shake a stick at. The fact that I had 3 mages and the Simularcum turned out to be key. I don't know if I would have had enough magic damage spells without them.

A note on the Litchify spell. It appears to work on dead people. In several of my battles Anomen or Keldorn has gotten themselves killed (but not chunked) prior to Dasypus casting this spell. Their grayed out Portrait then vanishes from my party list & I am sure that I will be unable to get them back. Is this a feature or a bug? B)

As far as Dasypus tactics go he doesn't seem to use his physical attacks or wing buffets enough against my mage types. In fact I would think that the mages are the ones he would target first. In all my battles they have been the only real threat to him. The fighters are mostly distraction given the frequency at wich he uses defensive spells. I'm also a bit suprised that he didn't use a death spell to get rid of the Mord's Swords. Admittedly they were not doing much, but still.

Oh and even though he doesn't have a blue or red circle my party seems to interperit the Master Djinni as a foe. The Diva was even able to attack him & do damage.

#44 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 06:05 PM

This time I was able to kill him & not have any party fatalities. Woohoo!

I still don't think he does quite enough against my mages, but this last fight I got a bit lucky. I had my mages cast Lower Reistance first thing (I had been waiting until my own timestop). Dasypus used timestop and then wing buffets. My party either saved vs the Lichify or had MR kick in ... first time everyone has made it. When his timestop ended mine went off & due to his wing attack no one was too close to him. So in addition to my usual comets, abi;s wilitings, & magic missile attacks my sorcerer was able to unload quite a few skull traps. The fight went only about a round after the timestop ended. A few magic missiles from various party members & one more abi & he was down for the count.

I will be interested to see if I can beat him without a sorcerer. I suspect that with enough greater whirlwind attacks & spells like spellstrike & warding whip it might be doable, but Dasypus uses a TON of protection form magic weapon and stoneskin spells. Messy.

Then for an insult I had to use CLUA to exit the area & got poped right into the middle of a room of Infernal Guards that I hadn't yet cleared. With so many spells depleted my party was easy prey. Sigh. The melee damage these guys do is insane.

You know, if there is one impression I have about RTW it is that too many of the nickle & dime fights are too hard. Usually this doesn't seem to be the case for me in other areas. For instance in Sendai's lair there are some interesting fights, but they aren't nearly as hard as a lot of the filler in RTW. Even the boss fights are harder. And IMO it is not improved AI that is causing this. It is the number and ability of the mosnters that are in RTW. A good example is the 20 mage fight you are working on. It is different & interesting, but having 20 of them?! And all able to use 6th & 7th level spells? I think that alone will be harder than 80 to 90% of normal ToB fights.

To me some of the indicators I've seen include the fact that I'm having to use wish to rest all the time. I'm usually able to complete all of Sendai's lair before resting. I have used more potions of healing in this one quest than I have in all of other games of ToB.

One of the main reasons I liked the idea of RTW was the emphasis on role playing I kept hearing about, but what I really feel like all I am doing is tactics and roll playing. I know that some of this will change with the addition of more dialogue but you might want to set expectations regarding the tactical challenges as well as talking up the other aspects of the mod.

I am also of the opinion that given how early in ToB RTW takes place that parties may be underpowered level wise & item wise. If there were any way for the messenger to show up later it would help. Any time after Yaga Shura's death would be fine, but until he is dead & the party has the items & XP from the associated quests I don't think they should be starting RTW.

I can also appricate the fact that you guys are in someting of a bind here. If you offer the quest too late folks might not want to do it & power wise if you tone things down it might make it too easy for the folks with the Wiemer mods (I can see how the Item Pack, Valen, Sola, etc. could really make RTW easier - sheesh just give my current party some of the items from the Item Pack & many of the fights would have been easier). Just some thoughts.

#45 Cuv

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 10:06 PM

Cuv, which mages are you talking about? Xyx's or yours? They have yours, and see 20 mages firing 20 misleads, followed by 20 graphical spells which remain on screen. It brought my machine to its knees. This is being entirely replaced.

I've yet to see Xyx's in action.

Those were mine with the Misleads.... Xyx's are far worse. His bring even my machine to its knees... a total halt... and the music get garbled with short loops. He is working on the problem. There are just too many spell animations going off at the same time.

Cuv

#46 Cuv

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 10:11 PM

Maybe some cult fighters, and then a few mages like 4 or 5, not with many spell shields and junk up would be better. Or maybe make the place 3 or so different areas so load in fight some mages. Load into another fight some more and so on until you get to garren and a not to big battle. As I said before I will start my pally game tonight so if your up at around 4 in the morning look for my posts.

Cant have fighters. The Cult of the Dragon are all Sorcerers. There will be basically three types in the new Xyx scripts: Necromancers, Invokers and Transmutters. I cant nor wont change the history of this group.

I am removing the Wish Ring from the next build until I can get the problem sorted out. The EFF to summon the Djinni was assigned with "equipping" and the ability icon.. so that explains the multiples, but the ring still wont function properly. Still considering scripting the whole Wish Ring thing. Making the ring a conversible item... then summoning the Djinni creature with the dialog... setting an incremental global to allow four uses, etc.

Cuv

#47 Cuv

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 10:18 PM

A note on the Litchify spell. It appears to work on dead people. In several of my battles Anomen or Keldorn has gotten themselves killed (but not chunked) prior to Dasypus casting this spell. Their grayed out Portrait then vanishes from my party list & I am sure that I will be unable to get them back. Is this a feature or a bug?

I'm not sure there is much I can do about that. I would call it a bug rather than a planned effect. The spell is basically the same as Flesh to Stone, but with a shorter casting time, penalty to save and it targets all creatures within a cone shape discharge pattern. If you are behind the dragon when he uses this... and arent in in view, you will not even have to save.

Another thing I noticed about the spell... is that it also does physical electrical damage. So a party member who is turned to stone can sometimes be stoned and chunkified in one go. I will see what I can do about that.

Cuv

#48 Cuv

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 10:21 PM

This time I was able to kill him & not have any party fatalities. Woohoo!

I still don't think he does quite enough against my mages

Congrats:)

Well, his racial enemy is Humanoid Paladins. He also targets fighters and paladins more often than any other class. This is part of his story... which you havent really read yet. I will ask Xyx to have him look at mages also... dont want him going down too easily. Too much time has been spent on his dialog to have that. He is an optional fight for all classes except Paladin.

Cuv

#49 Cuv

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 10:32 PM

You know, if there is one impression I have about RTW it is that too many of the nickle & dime fights are too hard.

A good example is the 20 mage fight you are working on. It is different & interesting, but having 20 of them?!

Thank you for the feedback. The fights werent originally intended to be this hard. Some testers find them easy, but I suspect that those testers are not playing totally legit... doesnt bother me how people want to play, but I dont want to exclude people who play by the rules and with the weapons that they should legally have at that time to get a harder battle. Let me know if you still feel the same way after the next build and more of the story is in place... which should explain alot of the tough battles.

As for the Mage Battle... I should explain the plan here. Yes, there are 20 Cult of the Dragon sorcerers. They are all between level 13-15... not too high. I am working on this battle now, btw. The party may not have to fight all 20 of them. Word of your prowess has reached their ears... and there will be an argument amonst them... where some may run rather than face you, and some may side with you against the others. This will be determined by your stats, level and dialog choices.

There is also the Cult Boss: Enghrath. He is a level 28 Wild Mage (current class if I can script that). He is the only one of them with the knowledge and expertise to perform the full ritual for Dasypus. You will only fight him IF you kill Dasypus. Such is the current plan... just a matter of getting it scripted. He will have minimal dialog.

Cuv

#50 Cuv

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 10:53 PM

One of the main reasons I liked the idea of RTW was the emphasis on role playing I kept hearing about, but what I really feel like all I am doing is tactics and roll playing.

I really dont want RTW to be thought of as just another "Hard Mod". I want it to be challenging, but not too difficult to negotiate through to the ending. The monsters have gone through a sorta evolution during production. Better AI has been put in... and more creative behavior especially with the vampires.

Let's look at the penalties the party faces when beginning RTW right after leaving Saradush:

Low levels for ToB
Removal of Pocket Plane ability due to the magic sealing the complex
Limited weaponry if starting a new ToB game
Inability to successfully rest in all but three areas on "Core"
Very tough monsters with devestating abilities

This is alot of penalties... to be sure. Perhaps removing some of the monsters would help.

I will have to look closely at the difficulty here. The best solution I can offer is to take the quest later. Sure, you get the quest right after Saradush... but you dont have to go right away. You can wait until you finish off with Balthazar if you wish... or even go to WK after the last challenge in the pocket plane.

The monsters may need to be toned down or lessened. The exceptions here are Dasypus and King Strohm... two optional fights that are intended to be highest difficulty.

Never fear, the roleplaying aspect of RTW will be awesome. You could play it again and again... each time only varying your choice in a single encounter dialog... and possibly get a completely different result later. Or play with a different character, and get totally different options that are based from different stats on the new character. But again, I dont want it to be too hard... but rather enjoyed for its roleplaying. Not easy to make everyone happy... some want harder battles, while others want high roleplay. I am trying to offer both. I value your opinion... so let me know. Hopefully Quitch will have the next build put together soon.

Cuv

#51 Michel

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Posted 26 July 2002 - 11:45 PM

w00t! I finally beaten the King Strohm Quest :D
I created a new party from SoA and played all the way to Irenicus. (had a nasty weird bug too, nothing to do with RTW tho)

This time my party was in the lvl20/23. Almost all survived most battles except Edwin. The only one that never died on me was Korgan (dual wielding the Flail of Ages and Axe of unyielding)
I bought the Shield of Balduran and the Cloack of Mirroring and that saved my butt many time since the Beholders didnt do any melee damage to me (immune to normal/+1 weapons)

My party:

Me (F/M/T) levels 14,14,17
Korgan, Saravok, Viconia and Edwin. All levels are in the 20
If there was a fight with an Banshee present then Eddy dies first (He never saved against the Wail)

I finally caught up with the imprisonnet Paladins (Hi Buli :D).
After i spoke to Donaldus the Jailor attacked me. He used Imp Mantle and Stoneskin. Too bad for him that Korgan was the close to him. At the momnet he turned hostile Korgan was already all over him (Flail acid,cold.....damage) and within seconds he was dead.
The old weird thing is that Donaldus keeps talking to me every 5 seconds. I oponed his cell and he keep doing the same loop of dialogue 5 seconds after the ending of the dialogue.
--
He keeps asking for the key and repeats that dialogue constantly ???Even after i oponed his cell.
--

Pocket plane ability is back in my specials again. It appearantly returns AFTER you enter the Beholders lair. Before entering i checked it and didnt had the PPA availeble only to find out that in the Beholders Lair it returned.

#52 Michel

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 12:12 AM

After reading some posts here about the cult....

Hmmm, i just beat the crap out of the Mages Cult but ehhh arent they ALL suposed to be hostile towards me ??? I just fought the first cult mage that saw me and the rest stayed neutral and never turned hostil. I casted 3 cloudkills to make them hostil but they NEVER turned hostile ???

#53 Michel

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 02:02 AM

OMG OMG OMG OMG

DYs isnt immune to Vorpal hit?!?!?! The fight began and 15 seconds later it was OVER?!?!?! I did lose Saravok, he turned with a blue circle? I immidiatly posted this. It shocked me BIGTIME!!

Edit: Duh Sarevok was petrified. Edwin is also dead, his body just hangs in the air :D Cant revive him anymore :( Down to 4 party people.
*goes back to the game*

Piccy is here

#54 Michel

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 02:33 AM

Arent those Djinn suposed to talk to me? ( I'v read Rath's post about the crashes when the Djinn sopke to him. No crashes for me tho.)


They dont talk to me, i cant talk to them (No Talk symbol) and my party keeps attacking them. (They dont get killed either (1HP belt?))

#55 Quitch

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 02:52 AM

1. Don't worry about the mages currently. They're going to come back with different spells and different AI.

2. If you pay the messenger he will basically tell you whether you're up to or not. Anyone want to suggest the XP he should look for? Right now it's something like 5.4 million.

3. Cuv, if they find it too difficult, why not shift the levels by one? Normal could become Core, Core becomes Hard, etc. We're being tight on resting.

Actually, if you think it's too hard on Core, try it on Normal and let us know what you think of that monster distribution. There should be less of them.

#56 Michel

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 02:53 AM

Just did the fight with Dasypus again. Everyone survived the battle. Im sorry to say but he is easy!

I prebuffed my party with "Stoneskin, prot from Evil, haste, GWW" I had Korgan use is "Enrage" He casted Timestop 2 times and attacked Korgan, but never succeded to get him killed. When the Timestop ended i withdrew Korgan and healed him with Viconia. Korgan, Sarevok and I were the only ones that engaged melee combat. Edwin occasionatly casted Haste or Stonskin. I didnt even summoned a Planetar. Viconia just walked around to heal everyone. She only ran if Dys was attacking her and then i hid her behind my fighters and Dys attacked my fighters again.


I fought him 4 times now and he cant win from me. (at Core)

Edit: Those Djinn are still not talking to me.

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 03:41 AM

Cuv, is Dasy still using my trial script or did you give him something else?

As far as Dasypus tactics go he doesn't seem to use his physical attacks or wing buffets enough against my mage types.  In fact I would think that the mages are the ones he would target first.  In all my battles they have been the only real threat to him.

Dasy uses simple "target nearest" for now. Fighters tend to be nearest more than mages.

The fighters are mostly distraction given the frequency at wich he uses defensive spells.

He's not that spell happy (at least, I didn't make him to be). Tell me... what would happen if he used less defensive spells? Remember he can only cast a spell or Wing Buffet once per round.

I'm also a bit suprised that he didn't use a death spell to get rid of the Mord's Swords.  Admittedly they were not doing much, but still.

If they were not doing much, then why forego an opportunity to Wing Buffet by casting Death Spell?

the 20 mage fight you are working on.  It is different & interesting, but having 20 of them?!  And all able to use 6th & 7th level spells?

Well... after killing dozens of level 18+ mages, I'd think that the party shouldn't mind fighting a group of lower level mages. If you're having trouble with the mage fights, I suggest triple Chained Horrid Wiltings, True Sight and Inquisitor Dispel Magic. That usually gets them.

I am also of the opinion that given how early in ToB RTW takes place that parties may be underpowered level wise & item wise.

We'll be sure to give an indication of the difficulty. Whether the player goes in early or late is entirely up to themselves. Some people like a challenge, and I wouldn't want to deprive them of the opportunity.

if you tone things down it might make it too easy for the folks with the Wiemer mods (I can see how the Item Pack, Valen, Sola, etc. could really make RTW easier - sheesh just give my current party some of the items from the Item Pack & many of the fights would have been easier).

Uhm... I myself can't really be bothered to take into account what cheesy mods people are running. If they install some god item add-ons, it's their problem and responsibility if the game becomes too easy.

Return to Windspear shouldn't feed your party cheesy loot and break the rest of the game, at least.

Well, his racial enemy is Humanoid Paladins.

It is? He has Ranger levels now, does he? :blink: Easy on the cheese, will ya? Just 'cause he hates paladins' guts doesn't mean het gets combat bonuses.

He also targets fighters and paladins more often than any other class.

Only because they get in his face. :P

#58 Michel

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 03:51 AM

Ehhh ???? Who is the guest???

#59 Xyx

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 07:43 AM

That was me. :)

I had to wait a little to get my account activated...

#60 Michel

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Posted 27 July 2002 - 07:47 AM

Hehe. after i posted i thought that it had to be you. I dont think guests know about the specifics :D