17 replies to this topic

[Hety]

I crrently layed thru BG1 part from start to chapter 6. Found numerous item issues so far:
1. Make paladin, equip him with items(Sukien) and he's no longer a pala. He's a butcher. Immune to everything.
2. Make a druid and do it to Clackwood mines. I managed to get my ac to like -12 -.- Thats a druid....
3. Many items lack "real" or "precise" descriptions. Like u will never know that minotaur axe gives +1 attack per round. Or that boots of smth that only druids and rangers can use are useable by all iirc.

Etc etc.

Currently i just stash all that "omg i'm pwnz0r" equip in bag of holding for future laugh Wanna solo sarevok with lvl 5 druid j/k

Generally i wonder if there are any plans of making those items less owerpowered(i mean it. WAY less)?

P.S.: NTotSC have same problems, but i'm not sure if its the plce t discuss em

Edited by Hety, 08 January 2006 - 11:23 AM.

[Sir BillyBob]

Go back and play the original mod. You will probably come back and and change your opinion.

Yes the items are overpowered. It was worse in the first game. I have already modified many items to be only +3 or less (most were +4 and +5!).

A paladin, druid, or evil wizard seem to be the main classes that the original TeamBG was most interested in giving items to. These three can become very powerful. It is up to you to decide if there is too much power here.

I have stated before, that I have no intentions of changing this classic mod so that some people feel the items are more in "balanced" with the rest of the game. I personally don't use most of those items, I sell them. If you want to make changes, that would be a good revisions mod to make.

[Hety]

Go back and play the original mod. You will probably come back and and change your opinion.

Yes the items are overpowered. It was worse in the first game. I have already modified many items to be only +3 or less (most were +4 and +5!).

A paladin, druid, or evil wizard seem to be the main classes that the original TeamBG was most interested in giving items to. These three can become very powerful. It is up to you to decide if there is too much power here.

I have stated before, that I have no intentions of changing this classic mod so that some people feel the items are more in "balanced" with the rest of the game. I personally don't use most of those items, I sell them. If you want to make changes, that would be a good revisions mod to make.

I c. I dont dare to sell em - income is crazy. Will get thru BG, will try to get em all and nerf/alter a bit. Ideas are good(not many specific items in this game tbh) butrealisation runs fun atm.

*Me smash!*

[ScuD]

BTW, Sir BillyBob, the armor from Beregost temple (tho one with Bless effect) fits the Kensai very good
And also, it has the healing effect - every time you wear it to the PC he heals 10 HP, so I can heal all my party except mages by putting it on/taking it off repeatedly

[Sir BillyBob]

More buggy items. Great. Okay, noted.

[Bill Bisco]

Hehe, not Trying to Bug you for all of your work Sir BillyBob, but I have found many buggy items.

1. Torim's Skin (one of the Armor's from Reiltar's buddies) works with a Ring of Protection.

2. Crown of the Shar Dukha does not work for Fighter/Cleric/Mages but says it does

3. Imoen can wear the Druid's boots yet in the Description it says that she can't. My Fighter/Cleric/Mage cannot wear it.

4. While Talking to the ArchDruid (I think he's in the final place for Cloakwood) you can be attacked.

5. Nemmerle's Revenge says it's usable only by Good and Neutral yet Evil can use it.

Continuation of what others have said.

Oh man oh man are some of these items cheap. I'm not attacking you for this, but sheesh. Torim's Skin and the Gloves of the Magi are the most broken things I've seen. Anywho, not your fault, but sheesh.

It's amazing how they made these yet refused to make Full Plate +5 to make the Warriors on Par eh? In fact some of them are superior to ToB items.

[Sir BillyBob]

I won't change the "intent" of the original items but I will definitely fix them if you find some broken. Same for the crappy descriptions. I think that would actually be a good starting point for a future DSotSC Tweaks mod that someone could make.

1. Armor works with ring of protection. Doesn't all of your armor work with magical rings? This is usually a game setting change you do with Ease of Use. There isn't anything in the armor's item file that blocks you from using the ring, it is a global setting.

2. I will check into this.

3. Imoen is sneaky like that. Okay, not sure why she can wear them.

4. Of course you can be attacked. There isn't a dialog option to walk away without a fight. I never did understand that but the original game only had options to start a fight. Another good place for a Tweak mod.

5. Revenge can be used by Evil? Okay, another item to look into.

Edit: Wrong on 5, reread the description, only Evil can use the staff. Good and Neutra should not be able to.

Edited by Sir BillyBob, 19 January 2006 - 03:03 PM.

[Bill Bisco]

1. Well, in normal AD&D 2nd Ed. Rules you are quite right. It is the Baldur's Gate Game that says that Rings of Prot. don't stack with Armors. Try putting on a +1 Chainmail and then put on an Amulet or Ring or Protection. The Game says that these items can't be combined. Torim's Skin (I think that's what it's called) Is a +something to Armor Armor and if other +Something to Armor Armors can't be equipped with a ring of protection along side them, then neither should Torim's Skin.

Trying to do what I have mentioned gets the note "This item cannot be equipped due to other equipped due to other magical equipment you are currently wearing."

4. What I mean is, if there is a Red enemy coming towards you while the Arch Druid decides to speak to you, that enemy can start hitting you while you are talking.

One more Note. Check the Armor Rating of Torim's Skin. There's a discrepancy between what it says it is in the Text, and what it actually is. It says Base AC-1 but I believe that it may be Base AC0

Also of note, if you compare Torim's Skin to Drizzt's armor, Drizzt's armor weighs Seven Pounds but is still enough to not impedge Mage Spells. Torim's Skin weighs 5 pounds, Does not Impedge Mage Spells. It does not but probably should not Impedge Thieving Skills.

Even though this just adds more power to this cheap item, it's more logical. And, if you agree, then you have just created the overall most powerful armor (Short of Big Metal Unit) in the game.

Edit: "Edit: Wrong on 5, reread the description, only Evil can use the staff. Good and Neutra should not be able to. " Aak sorry. I must have gotten confused somehow.

Edited by Bill Bisco, 19 January 2006 - 03:37 PM.

[Sir BillyBob]

So the ArchDruid's dialog doesn't pause the game when you talk to him? Interesting.

To be honest, I don't know the differences between 1st Ed rules and 3.5 rules and I really don't care. When I was a kid we only had 1st Ed rules (and had to walk 3 miles to school, uphill both ways - I kill me). Anyway, the armor is armor. I do see that some other armor items have a blank extended effects in their ITM file. I am not sure what that does to the item since it isn't filled in, but I can try to duplicate this with that armor and see if it fixes your issue. By the way, after 2 years of this mod, this is the first time anyone has ever noticed that any DSotSC armor doesn't follow the standard rules of the game. Maybe it is because everyone else always uses EoU to change this setting.

I am looking at the staff's ITM file right now in DLTCEP and it is set to not allow "Good" and "... Neutral" alignments. This means all alignments with Good in them and the Lawful/Chaotic Neutral alignments. So unless Imoen is true Neutral or something else, I don't see how she can use this staff.

[Sir BillyBob]

The way that EoU allows both magic rings and magic armor to be worn is to remove a default file in SoA called ITEMEXCL.2DA, well it doesn't remove it but it does gut it so nothing is left. This frees up the restrictions placed by the game on multiple protection items.

Now, the kicker here is that DSotSC/NTotSC/SoBH and probably other mods do not add their new magic armor items to this list anyway. If an item isn't on the list, the list can't stop you from wearing it with other magical protection items. So in reality, what I should do is add all protection items to this list. Even though I know that most players will add EoU which removes the list. However, if you install EoU first, I would add to the list thus destroying the reason you installed that component of the mod. By the way, I assume you have tested other DS armor items? You should get the same results with all of them.

[Bill Bisco]

To be honest, I don't know the differences between 1st Ed rules and 3.5 rules and I really don't care. When I was a kid we only had 1st Ed rules (and had to walk 3 miles to school, uphill both ways biggrin.gif - I kill me). Anyway, the armor is armor. I do see that some other armor items have a blank extended effects in their ITM file. I am not sure what that does to the item since it isn't filled in, but I can try to duplicate this with that armor and see if it fixes your issue. By the way, after 2 years of this mod, this is the first time anyone has ever noticed that any DSotSC armor doesn't follow the standard rules of the game. Maybe it is because everyone else always uses EoU to change this setting.

Hehe, you haven't played Third Edition D&D yet? Man, it is so much fun. It's quite ironic because I believe Third Edition to be the Best D&D System and Yet Baldur's Gate to be the best D&D Game.

What does EoU stand for btw?

I assume you have tested other DS armor items? You should get the same results with all of them.

Yeah, I think that I have, but I probably wasn't paying enough attention at the time. That particular item struck me.

And actually in Normal AD&D, Rings of Prot. does stack with magical armors, It's just the Developers of BG who decided that it should be otherwise. Although, in regular D&D there are no Gloves, Boots, Cloaks, or Helmets that add to AC either.

Sorry, SoBH stands for what?

Yeah what you are saying is an interesting Dilemma. However, I personally like to look at all mods and how they relate to the whole which is one reason that I do not like the CtB Movies. They make no sense if you're transferring to BG2 through them. And so, all mods which don't conform to the rules kind of mess up the Big Picture (literally, not the Combined mods).

On the other hand, it is kind of stupid to a degree as well, so I understand modders not wanting to bother.

[Sir BillyBob]

EoU - Ease of Use mod
SoBH - Secret of BoneHill mod

Again, the rules issues doesn't really matter because the game controls the rules, not a set of books. If BioWare decides to merger 2nd Ed with 3.5 Ed, there isn't much you can do about it if the merger is built into the game engine. All we can do is work around it.

I suspect that if I go look under the hood of other mods, I will find that they didn't update that 2DA file either. If so, their magical items also bypass the rule restriction on wearing multiple protection items.

Oh, and BTW the Korim armor does have the wrong AC. However, I will change the description instead of the armor. Can't have you running around at -6 total AC or something can we? You might post a message complaining about the items being too powerful!

Also, I think the armor should restrict thief skills. This is splint mail not chain mail. Splint mail with its metal bands wrapped around you are not going to make you very mobile or nimble enough to perform those skills. I can see chain mail allowing it if the links are very small; this would be more of a mesh that bends and therefore allow some thief abilities.

[Bill Bisco]

You might post a message complaining about the items being too powerful!

Hehe, I think I referred to it being overpowered earlier. Seriously, I thought the Crystal Plate was bad. You had to be a multiclass mage for that one, but with this you can be a single Class Mage And get a Better AC!

Also, I think the armor should restrict thief skills. This is splint mail not chain mail. Splint mail with its metal bands wrapped around you are not going to make you very mobile or nimble enough to perform those skills. I can see chain mail allowing it if the links are very small; this would be more of a mesh that bends and therefore allow some thief abilities.

Truthfully allowing that armor to use Theif Skills would probably make it even cheaper. I was comparing armors and noticed those few details. Heh, I always thought of Mage Spells Requiring a lot of free movement especially with the fingers and body movement and Korim's evidently does that well enough.

But enough of that, even I admit that allowing that might be a bad idea (although it would allow a really sweet Fighter/Mage/Thief).

SoBH - Secret of BoneHill mod

D'oh *smacks head* I'm actually playing that right now. I found a bunch of *not necessarily bugs* but suggestions as well as questions. I'll post on it as I find a few more to list.

I suspect that if I go look under the hood of other mods, I will find that they didn't update that 2DA file either. If so, their magical items also bypass the rule restriction on wearing multiple protection items.

Hehe, that's probably true. Oh well, it was a dumb rule anyway. However then, the Makers of BGT may want to incorporate that fact into the main Game since every other modder wants to ignore it

Edited by Bill Bisco, 19 January 2006 - 09:03 PM.

[Lemernis]

I appreciate the nostalgia for the original mod. But for play balance sake the items cry out for an overhaul. Also, it is immersion breaking for fans of the Forgotten Realms fairly familiar with its lore to see items of "Sukien" for sale in a temple of Lathander! Sorry, but this is just outright sloppy from a roleplaying perspective.

All that said, lest anyone get the wrong idea I love the mod. It's a great adventure and it is a total blast to fight a green dragon in BG1. Please take this as constructive criticism.

The ideas behind the items are fun, but they should be substantially toned down. And if they are for sale in a Lathanderite temple, associate them with Lathander; or perhaps make a few of them associated with deities allied with Lathander (Oghma, Milil, Gond, Kelemvor, Chauntea).

Now with Sword Coast Stratagems available it's a little more reasonable to have some higher level items available. And the original version should remain available for purists. But I would recommend making a tweaked alternative version that reduces the power of those uber items, and properly associates them with the deity of the Song of the Morning temple, where they are for sale.

[Miloch]

Another known issue, mitigated at least somewhat in the Tutu version.

Who exactly is Sukien anyway? Not an FR deity I take it, though technically neither was Tyr (originally).

[Lemernis]

If you Google "D&D, deities, Sukien" or Forgotten Realms, Sukien" you get bubkes. I found one obscure reference to it in RL as a mountain range in India. You'd think if it was from some other setting Google would turn something up.

[Miloch]

If you Google "D&D, deities, Sukien" or Forgotten Realms, Sukien" you get bubkes. I found one obscure reference to it in RL as a mountain range in India. You'd think if it was from some other setting Google would turn something up.

Yeah, I found pretty much jack in English on it too. Under the circumstances, I'm inclined just to leave it. It could conceivably be some sort of demigod lieutenant (not all of whom are documented in Realms lore) to Lathander or something, and it's not like the descriptions are totally incongruent there (at least not in the original). On the other hand, I felt obliged to change a couple references to Erreth-Akbe to something more fitting for a druidic holy place in Faerun. Using another author's copyrighted material (and not even in the same context) is a bit over the line.

[Chevalier]

From what I remember the whole Sukien stuff comes from one of the authors PnP campaigns.