27 replies to this topic

[melkor_morgoth75]

Hi all,

i have the feeling we should speak about this here at SHS. BUT first, i WANT to point out that i respect ANY work by anyone here, far from me to dimish people's work.

Anyway ... i'd like to speak about current BG modding situation here at SHS. It seems to me that lately (also due to the leaving of many great modders) we are focusing only to aggregate mega install instead of solving bugs of just existent mods. Most of people (players) coming here at SHS want to play the biggest mods as DSotSC, NTotSC, TDD, SoS, etc, etc ... BUT i think the MAIN goal now should be to HAVE all those mods playable without any issue or at least big issue.

Of course now i can speak only about the mods i play and i played my self. One of the most important mod that EVERYONE here needs is aldo the Worldmap Mod and actually it has some bugs ... causing NON experience players to stop playing (examples ... "Unreachable destination" on map).
BP is another GREAT mod that unfortunately has some bugs and compatibility problems in it (and it's beginning to become quite old now...).

MY personal point is that we, modders, etc .. SHOULD focus FIRST to create or have a VERY stable mod and THEN ... we can work on MEGA installs,etc. In this way i think the few modders remained here are losing time to solve problems for just a BIG ONE with 200+ Mods instead focusing on single Mods first.

LEONARDO: i'm with you, my topic is NOT against your work which is absolutely GREAT. Please continue with your project. Helping people with the install of Weidu mods is something great, i know the pain when, 2 years ago, i put in place the guide to install the OLD Mega Mods, so i'm with you.

I just feel to write these lines 'cause it seems to me that "we" are focusing on installations ... but not PLAYABILITY. Honestly i don't care if MY install ends correctly if LATER during the game i found bugs, i cannot travel between maps, i cannot finish a quest,etc etc etc ...

A good example of a great work&Mod for me, in my personal opinion, is BGT. It is simply great, no critical bugs at all and fully playable. Ascension64 is an example for everyone ... yeah u have my hat for your work mate. Just the first one is coming up to my mind ... many others deserves compliments here.

Guys ... it's just my personal view about the SHS BG2 modding life today. U can disagree about it of course, but i'm a very OLD BG player, here for long time and i really wanted to share my feelings with you.

Just my 2 cents,

mm75

Edited by melkor_morgoth75, 20 November 2007 - 01:07 AM.

[Ascension64]

Well, its a matter of getting modders to actually fix the mods and not be MIA.

At the same time, I surmise that a large number of bugs are due to incompatibility issues. As for getting modders to make their mods compatible with other mods, that is completely up to them and should certainly not be an expectation. Thus, the more emphasis on heavily modded installations, the more bugs will be generated, not necessarily because there is a bug in the mod itself, but there is a bug when two mods collide on the same resource.

Edited by Ascension64, 20 November 2007 - 01:07 AM.

[Chevalier]

Well melkor_morgoth75,

I can hear that this is from the heart!

What are you suggesting we do? Kidnap the modders, bribe them, moral pressure, if you are I am with you! Who should we kidnap first? I was going to list names, but that would just give them a warning. If we are going to bribe them, should we ask for donations for a fund? (give them ) Moral Pressure, if you or anyone has a good way to give them a guilt trip to finish and maintain their mods let us know. (something like if you finish/maintain your mod it will save lives of poor African kids)

If you are thinking that 'We' the current IE Modders should fix others mods I am with you, in sprite if not modding knowledge. Not everyone else will be, they think that they should not change others work without permission. On this what mods do you or others think we need to be fixing. FR_RV has some bugs and I don't think anyone is going to mind that 'We' fix. The mods that King Diamond fix/updated seem to be very stable (SoS, v1.12, TDD, v1.12, TS-BP, v6.10, CtB, v1.9 and mostly RoT, v2.1) and I think bugs with DSotSC, NTotSC and SoBH are mostly players not knowing what/how the mod moves forward ( have been trying to play far enough to test them for myself, I have been starting over mainly because new version of mods that are released). There was interest in a mod to tone down the over powered items in DSotSC, but no one with enough coding knowledge stayed with to finish it.

I am (along with your self) working in a very small way to get a fixed version of BP out the door. I have felt that this THE most important mod to get fixed since it first came out as a WeiDU mod. I worked with horred as a tester to find what bugs I could. My first test of BP-WeiDU was BP with only 'Bdash v1.5' and a few 'ease of use' components installed. We were trying to do just what you are proposing, get BP as bug free as possible before adding mods like TDD, SoS and others. I believe that many players want to base their game around BP. If BP is stable then their install will be more stable and other modders will use it as a base for their mods. I will drop everything (BG game wise) to test another version of BP.

Some of the mods that are causing the most problems are mods that are well supported, like the FixPack, and are being developed. The changes in the mods cause bugs with other mods, UB and Quest Pack both now have bugs if install with the FixPack. Is UB or the Quest Pack bugged? No. Is the FixPack 'core' bugged? Not really. This a mod conflict. These mods are stable, it is when they are installed together there is a bug. Like the bugs with a mega install (BiG World Project or not). We all want to install the latest version of each mod, don't we?

There should be a Big WARNING in the Mega Mod Forum:

YOU WILL FIND SOME BUGS WITH THESE MEGA INSTALLS

I would love to have all the Modders over for a party at my place as a Thank You for all your hard work! We could have Pizza, Drinks and have a good time! &

[aVENGER]

If you are thinking that 'We' the current IE Modders should fix others mods I am with you, in sprite if not modding knowledge. Not everyone else will be, they think that they should not change others work without permission.

IMO, altering someone else's work without their explicit permission would be highly disrespectful towards the original author, especially if the "bugs" only arise in combination with other (mega)mods. To clarify, if a mod works fine (bugfree) on its own, but installing it in a combination with other mods causes some issues, then any further tampering with its content (without the author's permission) would be subjective, and not really a "bugfix" per se. I'd rather mark such a mod as incompatible and just move on.

OTOH, if the original author explicitly grants the permission to alter his work, then it's perfectly fine to do so, and it can often lead to good things (like BGT for example).

[Chevalier]

We have had this debate before. To have a hopefully only a short on here. A mod like Quest Pack (yes, I know Sim is still around just using his mod as an example) is a stable and good mod, but when the mod 'FixPack" comes out with a conflict with Quest Pack. If the author is not around do we just call the mods incompatible? Or should we fix Quest Pack? Or do we release a mod that mods the Quest Pack? When a modder is not around where do we draw the line? Each of us will make their own decision. A bunch of small mods were converted to WeiDU even if the authors did not respond or could not be contacted. Was this wrong???

Trust me I do respect the Modders and their work.

If you or others want to continue this debate let do it somewhere else.

[aVENGER]

We have had this debate before. To have a hopefully only a short on here. A mod like Quest Pack (yes, I know Sim is still around just using his mod as an example) is a stable and good mod, but when the mod 'FixPack" comes out with a conflict with Quest Pack.

The first logical thing would be to contact the original author and inform him of the issue. If he acknowledges it, and agrees to fix it (at any given time) then that's it, mission accomplished. (Note: I'm not talking about Sim specifically here, I'm sure that he's already aware of the minor issues with his Quest Pack and that he'll fix them when he finds the time. He's probably busy working on TBH right now).

If the author is not around do we just call the mods incompatible?

IMO, it would be wise to attempt to contact the author first by all means available. Only in case he/she is truly out of reach should any other means be attempted.

Or should we fix Quest Pack?

Even if the original author was unreachable, I'd view publishing a revised version of his work as disrespectful (just my opinion). As stated earlier, I'd rather mark the mod (or a mod component) as incompatible and move on.

Or do we release a mod that mods the Quest Pack?

IMO, this is a tricky issue. If the mod (again, I'm not talking about the Quest Pack specifically) alters original game content and if that behavior causes a bug when it is installed with other mods, then one should first attempt to adapt the newer mods to the old mod by adding a workaround (usually in the form of specifically designed compatibility code blocks) but only if it doesn't break the concept of the old mod. IMO, this is the least intrusive method to deal with the issue. However, the fixpack which you mentioned in your example is a unique case since it should be installed before any other mods, so naturally this philosophy can hardly be applied in such a situation. The other option would be releasing an unofficial patch which can be installed on top of an older mod with a clear statement that it is not the work of the original author and that it was merely designed to fix some bugs. Still, if the old mod works fine on its own, I'd rather just mark it as incompatible with whatever mod it conflicts with then alter it without permission. Furthermore, if an old mod adds unique content (characters, areas, items, etc...) which is not based on any original game resources then I'd consider that completely off limits, for all intents and purposes.

When a modder is not around where do we draw the line? Each of us will make their own decision. A bunch of small mods were converted to WeiDU even if the authors did not respond or could not be contacted. Was this wrong???

No idea, you'd have to ask the mod authors what they think of it, but IMO, it's always wiser to try to contact the original authors before actually doing any work. That way, in case they refuse to give their permission to alter the mod no work hours will be pointlessly lost.

Trust me I do respect the Modders and their work.

I don't doubt that Chev, I'm just expressing my own view of the matter.

If you or others want to continue this debate let do it somewhere else.

Actually, I think it's fairly relevant to the topic at hand.

Edited by aVENGER, 20 November 2007 - 06:26 AM.

[melkor_morgoth75]

Dear Chev,

of course i don't suggest to bribe modders, ehehhehe. I agree with aVENGER about asking always permissions before changing something to an old mod. If u get no reply ... in Italy we say "chi tace acconsente", so we can proceed :-)

But the real problem today, u are right, my feelings come out from my heart, are the great bugs we need to face in multi-mod installation.

Suggestion: difficult to say. We can continue working in this way, covering holes on right and left or start a new project maybe. As SHS users, modders, players, etc...we could focus on the major mods, BE SURE they ALL work together without any issue. THEN ... we can move on implementing other mods.

Just take Vlad as an example here (bear with me Vlad, nothing personal ... the opposite actually). HE officially doesn't support any other install with its mods. It's a choice, may be MANY players won't play his mods just cause of that, BUT (i don't know 'cause i'm amongst the ones that still have to play NEJ for example) i expect that palying one of those mods is SAFE and i won't have ANY issue (or at least critical).

May be we can "choose" WHAT we (we is an abstract guys ... is the community here) support and what kind of installation WORK and what kind of mods the MEGA install should cover. May be BP can be used as "merging mods" as it was at time ... also BGT should be used as base, as the worldmap mod.

These are just suggestions and ideas ... but i feel that something "stable" and clear about MEGAmodification is needed.

Always ... just my 2 cents,

mm75

Edited by melkor_morgoth75, 20 November 2007 - 07:15 AM.

[Miloch]

There was interest in a mod to tone down the over powered items in DSotSC, but no one with enough coding knowledge stayed with to finish it.

Red Carnelian is still working on the Tutu version over at CoM (he just posted more progress a few days ago). Presumably that version could also be re-ported to BGT. And I still have it as an action item to introduce at least an optional component to make some of the items more realistic, but I'm trying to finish some of the smaller mods first, as DSotSC is pretty huge. This is one of those mods where the original authors seem to have gone missing ages ago, so it seems to be pretty much in the public domain now. Worldmap seems to be another example. So IMO, the community has the right to fix and improve such mods (but yeah, that debate has been carried on elsewhere).

I would love to have all the Modders over for a party at my place as a Thank You for all your hard work! We could have Pizza, Drinks and have a good time! &

Hey, I'll work for beer .

[erebusant]

There was interest in a mod to tone down the over powered items in DSotSC, but no one with enough coding knowledge stayed with to finish it.

Red Carnelian is still working on the Tutu version over at CoM (he just posted more progress a few days ago). Presumably that version could also be re-ported to BGT. And I still have it as an action item to introduce at least an optional component to make some of the items more realistic, but I'm trying to finish some of the smaller mods first, as DSotSC is pretty huge. This is one of those mods where the original authors seem to have gone missing ages ago, so it seems to be pretty much in the public domain now. Worldmap seems to be another example. So IMO, the community has the right to fix and improve such mods (but yeah, that debate has been carried on elsewhere).

I would love to have all the Modders over for a party at my place as a Thank You for all your hard work! We could have Pizza, Drinks and have a good time! &

Hey, I'll work for beer .

I'll be running through the Worldmap with my current install starting this weekend. If any issues with it come up, I'll keep you posted. Thus far in BGT, no issues, but I'm not to Bonehill, DSotSC or NTotSC portions yet.

[CrowLord]

With regards to big mega mod installs and SHS support

Sometimes when im thinking of what i should install, and then thinking of all the bugs that could put me off i feel disheartened. With my first mega install i couldnt go into a certain area to finish the DSotSC area and it really pissed me off. Lots of fantastic mods have been made and it would be fantastic if you could play all of them, but at the moment you can't. Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't just be easier to fashion one big mod that incorporated all of the quests and tweaks from other mods, rather than simply do reinstall after reinstall finding bugs.

It would be so much work, but if someone (or even a large group of people) were able to finish a piece of work like that, you would finally have an end to all the compatability worries.

of course there would be downsides. it would probably end up being a file of size 10gb+, and some people would still be unhappy.

Im predicting someone to say this is impossible, and i agree with you, this is just what i think would be perfect in a dream world.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Well, if you look at The BiG World Project, isn't Leonardo Watson already doing that? Even though, it's not a one big mod project.
And by the way, it would be much bigger than 10Gb's, unless you would want to cut things, and that's always, NO!

But, if we could build a Frontend project that would base itself on WeiDU, but give us a few more options to play with, that would be sweet! Let's go and bother Avenger with all the things that we want, and not help him at all.

Ps notice, the last sentence was made with a load of irony.

[melkor_morgoth75]

Well, we are going off-topic ... unfotunately my post (and replies) says me that we still continue working in this way. Ok, fair enough, i hope we can grab as much bugs as we can so ;-)

But since 3 years we're trying to do that .. and we'll continue onky squashing bugs and not do a full playable BG1+BG2 modded game version,

sadly,

mm75

[Miloch]

But since 3 years we're trying to do that .. and we'll continue onky squashing bugs and not do a full playable BG1+BG2 modded game version

Well... it's been far longer than that since lots of folks have been trying to do the same thing getting Windows to work with other applications.

Although interest in BG may seem to be declining, I think it will continue to have peaks and troughs, like the stock market. And lots of things come back into fashion decades after they were first popular - look at bell bottoms and disco (though I suppose I should've used an example of something good ).

[Jarno Mikkola]

But since 3 years we're trying to do that .. and we'll continue onky squashing bugs and not do a full playable BG1+BG2 modded game version

But now most of the mods are at least mostly quite well( ) compadable with some of the others, and the mapping process is well on it's way.

Although interest in BG may seem to be declining, I think it will continue to have peaks and troughs, like the stock market. And lots of things come back into fashion decades after they were first popular - look at bell bottoms and disco (though I suppose I should've used an example of something good ).

What about Fallout? But then again, we might want to forget about that too.

[dragonian]

The problem is that a lot of modders are not accesible now and some of those who are still working don`t want their mods integrated with other mods

[Kulyok]

How about only installing mods that won't screw up your game?

[Ascension64]

How about only installing mods that won't screw up your game?

I thought this discussion was about when mod combinations screw up your game, not mods in isolation.

[melkor_morgoth75]

How about only installing mods that won't screw up your game?

Thanks for helping the SHS modding community and all users, Kulyok ;-)

mm75

[Kulyok]

Same thing. If mods are coded carefully and tested thoroughly, you can install hundreds of them together.

Or, rather, more bluntly: if a specific combination doesn't work, and it's not this rare case that two mods are specifically meant NOT to be working together(NewMageCombatScripts1 and NewMageCombatScripts2), then something is wrong with one of them.

You want to fix an old mod that's not working? Constant crashes to desktop, horrible dialogue, broken scripts, and the author doesn't mind you helping with it? Be my guest. But taking three mods with multiple bugs and trying to make them work together without debugging and/or overhauling them one by one beforehand is doomed, doomed, doomed.