152 replies to this topic

[agb1]

Got it.  Kaira-Zaiya #5 stays Expert.

 

I just committed many additional updates to BWS.  If anyone wants to download and check the pre-selections, it would help!  I am not sure about the Tactical pre-selection at the moment.

[Lollorian]

Then my vote is: remove component from BWS as it presents no actual value for improving AI.

BWS should enable installing every BG mod under the sun but give fair warning about what you're installing

To some extend, yes. But only with the condition that BWS/BWP maintainers can fix mod bugs with an easy and no-time consuming way. Otherwise BWS/BWP are forced to skip some mods because they cause to much overwrite/mess/damage for game files.

The thing about that is that no mod is bad or buggy by itself You can have an installation with just Kiara-Zaiya installed and you will have no bugs to fix with that - the bugs only show up when you bring multiple mods into the picture.

 

Now in light of the above, is the purpose of the BWS only to enable megamod installations? I was under the impression that the BWS would easily allow me to setup a simple 1 mod installation as well as a mammoth 500+ mod installation with equal ease - the only difference being the BWS will clearly tell you the risks involved with installing fuckloads of mods together so you can make an informed decision

 

PS: All this is moot for Kiara-Zaiya atleast because this happened Move this shit to Tactical.

[Roxanne]

Then my vote is: remove component from BWS as it presents no actual value for improving AI.

BWS should enable installing every BG mod under the sun but give fair warning about what you're installing

To some extend, yes. But only with the condition that BWS/BWP maintainers can fix mod bugs with an easy and no-time consuming way. Otherwise BWS/BWP are forced to skip some mods because they cause to much overwrite/mess/damage for game files.

The thing about that is that no mod is bad or buggy by itself You can have an installation with just Kiara-Zaiya installed and you will have no bugs to fix with that - the bugs only show up when you bring multiple mods into the picture.

 

Now in light of the above, is the purpose of the BWS only to enable megamod installations? I was under the impression that the BWS would easily allow me to setup a simple 1 mod installation as well as a mammoth 500+ mod installation with equal ease - the only difference being the BWS will clearly tell you the risks involved with installing fuckloads of mods together so you can make an informed decision

The purpose of automation (which is what BWS provides) is to assist you in a task that would be cumbersome and subject to mistakes if done manually.

Adding a single mod to a BG2 game from my point of view does not require automation.

Creating a BGT installation with just a handful of mods may already be a) cumbersome and b) go wrong if you are not extremely careful.

Where exactly that boundary is, depends to large extend on the expertise of the user.

As a rule of thumb I would say that as soon you come to a selection that has dependecies you are safer using BWS - besides all the extra help it gives you like downloading, extracting and fixing/patching all the stuff for you.

PS: All this is moot for Kiara-Zaiya atleast because this happened Move this shit to Tactical.

Edited by Roxanne, 22 November 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[Lollorian]

I'm going through the most recent commits to the BWS Nice work agb1! Could you update the first post of the topic with the new changes so that when someone has a look they can immediately know what we concluded at a glance?

 

Anyway, some comments on the recent changes:

 

- "Move Tales of Anegh from Standard to Tactical"

The first component can remain Standard, the balancing components should probably be Tactical

 

- "Song & Silence from Standard to Recommended (for NPC_EE to use Adventurer kit for Imoen)"

Song & Silence is a huge ruleset changing mod - seriously consider keeping it unchecked by default

 

- "XXXX from YYYY to None"

What does this None mean? New group like Standard/tactical/expert?

 

Don't have much of an idea about what this commit changed

[Fouinto]

IMHO (one of a long time player not a modder) : what Expert category bring is : uncheck Expert and you have a perfectly playable game.

I made a lot of tactics install with BWS and, I had VERY FEW bugs that need to be expert to solve...

I think that, what you are doing is just bringing new bugs in Standard I know that you (all) fix the problems as fast as they show ups, but, I liked the idea Tactics=safe.

(remember this was just my personal opinion).

My 2cts

[Roxanne]

IMHO (one of a long time player not a modder) : what Expert category bring is : uncheck Expert and you have a perfectly playable game.

I made a lot of tactics install with BWS and, I had VERY FEW bugs that need to be expert to solve...

I think that, what you are doing is just bringing new bugs in Standard I know that you (all) fix the problems as fast as they show ups, but, I liked the idea Tactics=safe.

(remember this was just my personal opinion).

My 2cts

Is it not that some bugs come from constellations of mods only-

 

So there are mods individually designated as tactical (you can include any of those into any game selection at will)

AND

There is a tactical mod install option to install a complete tactical game (tactical mods + others) that should be (as much as anyone can say) bug-free???

Edited by Roxanne, 22 November 2015 - 02:48 AM.

[khelban12]

Big Picture
Need more information on known issues and safe/unsafe components. Can we move this to Standard?

One problem i had with BP is with creatures scripts not firing correctly. Some enemies just stand doing nothing, some enemies that have innate invisibility (like the invisible stalkers and the air creatures in WK L2) go invisible the moment they appear so they cannot be killed unless you pause and ctrl-y them, the Ice Golem's script in WK L2 (and Yaga-Shura and others) doesn't fire correctly to remove the minhp, invulner items so it also cannot be killed, etc. Since nobody else reported it, obviously it is the combination of BP with some other mods i use (for example i always use rr, atweaks) but i only have these problems with BP installed.

Victor's Improvements Pack
Needs conflict analysis before moving to Standard.
Has anyone played with this mod recently?

The "Improved Races", "Wizards know better" just change some tables. I also use the "DJin Merchant", "Romance friendly imprisonment", "Lydia's Scroll" without any problems. The "Weapons for all" component removes any requirement so it isn't coded that much well. I have also played with the "Improved Dungeon" and "Additional Encounters (Shrek)" without any problems, i just didn't like them much. I have never used the kits or other components like "grandpa's shield"
 

Ashes of Embers
Moved to Standard. Not enabled by default.
Has anyone played with this mod recently?

I have used only the weapons for all component (i now use the b!tweaks version). It works fine if you like the changes. I do not like the fact that besides the class requirements, it also changes str/dex requirements (i prefer the requirements implemented in Item Revisions and it also messes some unique items) and also that it arbitrarily changes daggers from 1D4 to 1D6. I always install it but with the above changes.

Dungeon-Be-Gone under BG2 Tweaks
Moved to Standard. Not enabled by default. Updated description.

I always install this and i never encountered any bugs. Of course as previously mentioned, you may not be able to recruit some NPCs (Yasraena works because she appears right at the end).

Spell-50 under BG2 Tweaks
(NOTE: Contrary to the description above, BWS currently does not allow Spell-50 and Spell Revisions to be installed at the same time.)
Needs conflict analysis before moving to Standard.
Has anyone played with this mod recently?

If we are talking about the mod that you can download from weidu.org then it copies premade spells so it will overwrite any changes done by previous mods. If there is a spell-50 component in BG2 Tweaks that i am not aware of, then disregards what i said.

Throne of Bhaal Revisited (Beta) under BG2 Tweaks
Needs description update with known problems from @Roxanne.

I always install WoP and TOBR and the only problem i had was with the pocket plane component (i think it overwrote some script but i can't remember). Other than that i didn't have any problems but i don't install many tob mods so i may have missed some bug.

Virtue under BG2 Tweaks
Need more information. Has anyone played with this mod recently?

I always install it. The only problem i had was what i asked about in my thread. With the bwp fixpack et_gener not applied, i didn't have any bugs.

Zyraen's Miscellany under BG2 Tweaks
Need more information. Has anyone played with this mod recently? Are any of the components safe in a megamod install?

I always install the "Improved Statue" and "Extended * Spells" components which don't do something special so of course work fine. I have also used "Solo with a party ai" (npcs would come and go continually because of a conflict with a script about convenient petrification, imprisonment, etc. after i modified the script, it would work but occasionally i would miss some dialogue because the game wouldn't recognise some npc in the party) and "Transfer Yoshimo XP" (i do not remember what problem i had with this).

[The Imp]

I have also used "Solo with a party ai" (npcs would come and go continually because of a conflict with a script about convenient petrification, imprisonment, etc. after i modified the script, it would work but occasionally i would miss some dialogue because the game wouldn't recognise some npc in the party)

I believe there's a better version of that in ToBEx.. The imprisonment and other dead state fixes.
@khelban12: Do you have a link to somewhere we can see a weidu.log that has those problems ? Just for reference.

[khelban12]

I have also used "Solo with a party ai" (npcs would come and go continually because of a conflict with a script about convenient petrification, imprisonment, etc. after i modified the script, it would work but occasionally i would miss some dialogue because the game wouldn't recognise some npc in the party)

I believe there's a better version of that in ToBEx.. The imprisonment and other dead state fixes.
@khelban12: Do you have a link to somewhere we can see a weidu.log that has those problems ? Just for reference.

I do not have a weidu.log that contains the above components because it's been a while since i last used them. The problem of the NPCs coming and going was very easily solved but i remember that i missed some dialogues. For example you are doing battle and after you beat the enemy enough, battle stops and he says something to you. Or the moment the battle finishes, a npc is spawned and talks to you. In cases like this, the party npcs haven't yet returned so they weren't recognised as part of the party or something. I can't remember it exactly but it was something like this. After that (and after reading the BWP pdf that it shouldn't be installed), i stopped using this component.

[Lollorian]

AvengerKit - Elven Supremacy component should be Expert

- Overwrites Suldanessalar and related stuff (found it while looking at Kiara )

 

@Fouinto:

I think what you want can be achieved with the modlist concept that the BWS introduces (we can have a "safe" install along with the Arkenor and micbaldur modlists )

Speaking of which, I have one myself

 

Mod categories like Recommended/Standard/Tactical/Expert should IMHO be used to categorize stuff not based on compatibility but safety of installation.

 

If anyone is aware of the Skyrim modding scene, I'm sure the STEP project will bring up a very nice analogy:

 

STEP Core = BWS Recommended (essential stuff for any player)

STEP Extended = BWS Standard (safe to install stuff but may change gameplay significantly - not recommended for first time players)

??? = BWS Tactical (safe to install but trememdously increases difficulty)

??? = BWS Expert (not safe to install at all but present for anyone who wants to try something)

Edited by Lollorian, 22 November 2015 - 05:03 AM.

[Roxanne]

AvengerKit - Elven Supremacy component should be Expert

- Overwrites Suldanessalar and related stuff (found it while looking at Kiara )

 

@Fouinto:

I think what you want can be achieved with the modlist concept that the BWS introduces (we can have a "safe" install along with the Arkenor and micbaldur modlists )

Speaking of which, I have one myself

 

Mod categories like Recommended/Standard/Tactical/Expert should IMHO be used to categorize stuff not based on compatibility but safety of installation.

 

If anyone is aware of the Skyrim modding scene, I'm sure the STEP project will bring up a very nice analogy:

 

STEP Core = BWS Recommended (essential stuff for any player)

STEP Extended = BWS Standard (safe to install stuff but may change gameplay significantly - not recommended for first time players)

??? = BWS Tactical (safe to install but trememdously increases difficulty)

??? = BWS Expert (not safe to install at all but present for anyone who wants to try something)

Is this feasible here? - the problem will be install order which is often significant - so there are no steps in BWS but total selections. Or maybe it is just a question of phraseology? Step Core is for beginners but to get Step extended you cannot just add stuff but you must re-install with the next higher option, right?

Most likely it is just a question of explaining the thing correctly to the user. Leonardo's BWP manual is good for this - the BWS sadly does not have some equivalent - you are supposed to read it all from the GUI, which is not always obvious.

Edited by Roxanne, 22 November 2015 - 05:38 AM.

[The Imp]

Is this feasible here? - the problem will be install order which is often significant - so there are no steps in BWS but total selections.

This is the exact reason you really have to edit/customize the mod selections you pick.
Of course adding things to the standard is not a thing that should be done whilly nilly.

Edited by The Imp, 22 November 2015 - 06:08 AM.

[agb1]

Thanks for all feedback! Reviewing now.

Edited by agb1, 22 November 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[agb1]

I'm going through the most recent commits to the BWS Nice work agb1! Could you update the first post of the topic with the new changes so that when someone has a look they can immediately know what we concluded at a glance?

 

Anyway, some comments on the recent changes:

 

- "Move Tales of Anegh from Standard to Tactical"

The first component can remain Standard, the balancing components should probably be Tactical

I'm looking at the TP2 because I don't see descriptions of the components in the readme.

 

Component 10=Creature Balancing adds items to creatures, so I am guessing this is a difficulty increase (Tactical)

Component 20=AREA Balancing deletes items from areas, so I am guessing this is removing overpowered items (not Tactical)

Component 30=Dialog & Script Balancing focuses on reducing XP rewards from quest scripts and dialogues (not Tactical)

Component 40=Stores Balancing deletes items from Z_BIBLI.sto and Z_EMIR.sto (not Tactical)

Component 50=Item Balancing patches 0x8c (damage bonus) on some weapons (I don't know original values but I guess not Tactical)

 

So I am reverting ToA to keep the rest of the mod Standard and just component 10 Tactical.

 

- "XXXX from YYYY to None"

What does this None mean? New group like Standard/tactical/expert?

None is 0000.  Meaning it is not enabled by default in any pre-selection.

[Lollorian]

Just IMHO saying this but reducing the power of weapons/XP and removing overpowered items INCREASES difficulty so I'd consider it tactical

[agb1]

You're right.  I was looking at it backwards.  I will make 10,20,30,40,50 all Tactical.

Edited by agb1, 22 November 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Lollorian]

Thank you Looking at your commits is a learning experience on how the BWS works

 

Btw, any chance you would update the first post with all the mod movement? Even a "Things that have moved" section at the bottom would help.

[agb1]

Updated first post.

 

Recent changes listed here too:

 

* Reverted Song & Silence (mod is now Standard Type again [removed Recommended], and the mod is also enabled by default for Standard pre-selection and up)

* Reverted Imoen kit (now uses NPC Kit Pack's Adventurer kit #1400 for all pre-selections; according to S&S README, if you install it after NPCKitPack #1400, it will patch Imoen to use S&S Adventurer, so this does the same for Standard+ as what I had before with NPC_EE, without the need to install S&S for Recommended)

 

* Reverted Tales of Anegh main component from Tactical to Standard, but component 10,20,30,40,50 remain Tactical

* Improved Tales of Anegh component descriptions

 

* Moved Holy Avenger Kit "Elven Supremacy" component from Standard to Expert because overwrites files

 

* Touchstone NPC

  - Renamed mod to "Touch the Moon - Touchstone NPC"

  - Moved from Expert to Standard and enabled by default

  - Clarified optional component description (custom kit for NPC only)

  - Expanded mod description (location, alternate portraits, kit description)

 

* Spell-50

  - Moved from Expert to Standard, disabled by default because Spell Revisions is preferred

  - Updated mod description

 

* Updated Kiara-Zaiya mod description (successful play-through reported with Valen vs. stated "missing dialogues")

* Added "overwrite files" warning to "Revised Suldanessellar" component 5 description for Kiara-Zaiya mod

* Added "overwrites files" warning to "Suldanessellar NPC changes" component 2 description for Holy Avenger Kit mod

[Lollorian]

Spell-50: it causes stutter issues with spells like web. Suggest keeping it expert

Kiara-Zaiya component 5: it overwrites unless the BWPficpack is applied - the commit i did earlier today makes the component patch

[agb1]

So it is safe to make it Tactical again?