95 replies to this topic

[Ieldra]

A few thoughts about the premise of LR:

I have read the story "Bitter Grey Ashes", that is, most of it. I have to say, it works very well. Jon shows some interesting character development without ever losing his authenticity. It's not the style I'd pay money to read, and it's not the kind of world I'd pay money to read about (which goes for nearly all FR fiction), but nonetheless I appreciate it. Nor do I discount the - maybe doubtful - possibility that a character like Jon can be redeemed, as far as I believe in the concept. Whatever my own thoughts on the matter, as a story it does work.

Nonetheless, I do not think that such a story translates well into a TOB mod. I have not played LR, but I simply can't imagine why a character so loaded with her own problems would take into her group the very character who was responsible for stealing an essential part of her identity, to say nothing of the torture that went with it. I have played with Redemption once, just to see how it would work out, and for me it didn't. It just felt wrong. For LR, you'd need to play either a saint or a sadist, and both aren't much fun to play, just as it isn't much fun to read about characters who are, each in his own way, perfect. And while I could believably deal with a situation like Sarevok in my party as it was thrust upon me, and I was curious, and I could admire his tenacity, I could not imagine going out of my way, to say nothing of making any real efforts, to have Jon in my party. It doesn't make any difference how much responsibility Ellesime may have had for Jon's development, nor whether or not any other divine and not-so-divine entities have had any influence in this matter. The end of it is: I can, with some effort, imagine a character that could stand Jon being near herself if it was worth it in some mysterious way. To imagine one who would *want* this after all that happened in SOA, that reminds me too much of the Stockholm syndrome. And that's a sickness of the mind I wouldn't want in a character I play.

So, I question LR's premise within the context of SOA and TOB. Perhaps I'll start a game with it some day and see if my pre-emptive reasoning was right. If I can overcome the feeling of wrongness I have when thinking about it.

Edited by Ieldra, 28 September 2004 - 12:15 AM.

[maidros]

Again, try reading what I wrote. I do think a perfect way never to improve is to automatically take all criticism as a personal attack motivated by gods know what, and/or saying, "oh, the person criticizing me is motivated by ____, so I can discount the criticism." Also, if you want people to be nice to you, you have to be nice to them. However, accusing people of being controlled by an outside source and generally being rude to them is hardly going to motivate them to treat you with kid gloves.

Domi: OT, but what does "shaking each-other's manful hands" mean?

I tried reading what was written, and I am afraid, I see no specific suggestions about what can be done to improve the mod.

You mention spelling/grammar mistakes but do not mention where they occur. Please let us know where they are and we shall rectify it.

You refer to 'modern references', but that is hardly something that needs to be avoided. We are talking about a different world, so I see no problem with cross referencing.

Thirdly, 'vibe' appears in an old Rafael Sabatini article in the Strand magazine in January,1911 - hardly what I should constitute as 'modern'

Fourth - 'sheesh' is also a fairly old term - it was certainly popular in the 1960s. I cannot see anything wrong with it - please let me know why you think it should be replaced.

If you want to redeem a guy, you absolutely are not going to start with 'you soul stealing so and so'. You cannot expect him to take you seriously after that - it is not what you say, it is how you say that matters. At no point of time does the PC or anyone else attempt to gloss over what Jon did or imply to him that he did right.

Hmm, maybe there is a message somewhere in that.

The bashing of strong women - Jon is certainly not going to be impressed with Mazzy's ideals - note I am not saying that Mazzy's ideals are wrong, or misguided, but simply that Jon is not going to be attracted to it. You can hardly expect Jon to be less than disdainful of Mazzy.

By the way, Jon is certainly rather intimidated by Viconia and Jaheira - two other strong women, in my opinion. So I cannot see what you mean by 'attacking strong women'. Do you mean he is disdainful towards 'lawful women'? I would be delighted to have your opinion on this.

As for implying that Ellesime did not love him enough, I do not know where that comes from. Why do you think the authors have implied that?

All mages seem to have the need to be verbose - it seems a general disease to all male mages in the Realsm. Why, for example, is Elminster so rambling and verbose? Why is Edwin verbose? Why is the bioware Irenicus always verbose? That seems to be in character for all of them. That is the spirit we have tried to capture.

If you have any specific suggestions about what should be done to improve the mod, please send it us and we shall be grateful to you for them and shall act to either include your suggestions or let you know what other design ideas and constraints foreclose such an option.
With regards,
Maidros

[maidros]

On a more serious note -- all-american conference sounds like a very cool idea actually. Alas, my personal vacation time is short... and being trapped inside a cleanroom with a nylon mask over my face and surgical gloves on my hands as I currently am (yeah -- I guess that is why I sympathise with Irenicus), I could not make it to Romania this year... On other hand if you ever drive by Boston MA it might open interesting possibilities.

We might do it on a chat session sometime, when all are free. A few talks on modding and coding and design constraints from all involved. What do all the folks think?

[Ieldra]

About modern terms:

1960 is not fairly old. It's quite modern. 1911 is borderline.

In fact, the question of "modern terms" is not so much if they're modern or not, but whether or not they invoke our own world in a way that pulls you out of the story. I've had this problem with Kelsey and Chloe, occasionally. I think cross-world referencing, whether intentional or not, is one of the worst things you can do to a Fantasy story taking place in another world (excepting a few intentionally humorous exchanges). It some cases, it only takes one word to pull you straight out of the world into your own chair.

[T.G.Maestro]

I agree with Ieldra here.

[dorotea]

It's not the style I'd pay money to read, and it's not the kind of world I'd pay money to read about

BGA is not being written with an idea of getting paid for it in mind, so I find your commentary highly questionable and a little offensive. Did I solicit anybody to pay for it by chance?

Incidentally, as I once told one of my writing friends (we have a little community of writers who write for pleasure of it but some strive to become professionals -- not me though), well I told her that if you are starting a story and give it a mental 'title' The Story that is going to make me very very rich and famous' it is likely will never work... only if your inner 'title' is 'The Story that I am writing for myself because I am dieing to find out how it will end, and by the way, the rest of world can share it with me if they so desire' -- then you have a chance to produce something worthy of wasting your lifetime on.

[dorotea]

I have not played LR, but I simply can't imagine why a character so loaded with her own problems would take into her group the very character who was responsible for stealing an essential part of her identity, to say nothing of the torture that went with it. I have played with Redemption once, just to see how it would work out, and for me it didn't. It just felt wrong. For LR, you'd need to play either a saint or a sadist, and both aren't much fun to play, just as it isn't much fun to read about characters who are, each in his own way, perfect. And while I could believably deal with a situation like Sarevok in my party as it was thrust upon me, and I was curious, and I could admire his tenacity, I could not imagine going out of my way, to say nothing of making any real efforts, to have Jon in my party.

Wonderful admission. I am seriously confused now. So you did not play the mod and did not read any dialogs but you are very sure in advance you will not like it?

Hmm, I want to say that it maybe that I have a different view on many things, but IMHO, LR was created for a character who are neither saint nor sadist, but merely insanely curious as to how a personality like Jon could have come to be... and very very brave to play with fire and risk being burnt again for the sake of finding out the truth -- and maybe gaining advantage for him/herself -- as the main premise of the plot is 'either you try to deal with the situation in hand or somebody else will'.

[maidros]

In fact, the question of "modern terms" is not so much if they're modern or not, but whether or not they invoke our own world in a way that pulls you out of the story. I've had this problem with Kelsey and Chloe, occasionally. I think cross-world referencing, whether intentional or not, is one of the worst things you can do to a Fantasy story taking place in another world (excepting a few intentionally humorous exchanges). It some cases, it only takes one word to pull you straight out of the world into your own chair.

Cross referencing is annoying only if the cross referenced object/entity is not in the world being cross referenced, or if it is a mis-reference from the author. I see nothing wrong with either 'vibe' or 'sheesh'. Why Neriana considers them wrong I do not know.

[Ieldra]

Cross referencing is annoying only if the cross referenced object/entity is not in the world being cross referenced, or if it is a mis-reference from the author. I see nothing wrong with either 'vibe' or 'sheesh'. Why Neriana considers them wrong I do not know.

In that you're wrong. The use of a term breaks suspension of disbelief if primary associations of the term in question, its annotations, point to a different world than the one it is intended to describe, regardless of whether or not the term does actually describe a specific item adequately.
Think of the word "telephone", for instance. Apart from the item the term actually describes, a very specialized term like "telephone" carries such a load of cultural baggage that it points strongly, almost exclusively, to our own timeline. For instance, "post-industrial-revolution society" is always implied, as is "high technology available to the masses" and "devices invented through, or as byproduct of, the systematic application of science". These associations make it inadequate for any world with a different history, even if the item does really exist. I would find it necessary to use a different term, probably something as general as "far-speaking device".

As for the terms in question, as a non-native speaker of English I don't know their history well enough to make an informed decision. As a rule, I think it's better to be safe than sorry.

[SimDing0]

In fact, the question of "modern terms" is not so much if they're modern or not, but whether or not they invoke our own world in a way that pulls you out of the story. I've had this problem with Kelsey and Chloe, occasionally. I think cross-world referencing, whether intentional or not, is one of the worst things you can do to a Fantasy story taking place in another world (excepting a few intentionally humorous exchanges). It some cases, it only takes one word to pull you straight out of the world into your own chair.

Cross referencing is annoying only if the cross referenced object/entity is not in the world being cross referenced, or if it is a mis-reference from the author. I see nothing wrong with either 'vibe' or 'sheesh'. Why Neriana considers them wrong I do not know.

This implies that it's quite okay for someone in the game to say "f**k it" or "you're a f**t". Both sex and homosexuals exist in the setting, but I think you'll agree that this would be inappropriate for the game.

EDIT by Dorotea: Sim, I got your point -- but there is no need to use actual swear-words in your post, however much you want to impress your readers.

EDIT by Sim: I appreciate your censoring the second word to "foot", which I find very funny. But okay, if you'd prefer I protect people the same age as me from the horror of my mind, I'll gladly comply.

Edited by SimDing0, 04 October 2004 - 01:36 PM.

[maidros]

Cross referencing is annoying only if the cross referenced object/entity is not in the world being cross referenced, or if it is a mis-reference from the author.  I see nothing wrong with either 'vibe' or 'sheesh'.  Why Neriana considers them wrong I do not know.

In that you're wrong. The use of a term breaks suspension of disbelief if primary associations of the term in question, its annotations, point to a different world than the one it is intended to describe, regardless of whether or not the term does actually describe a specific item adequately.
Think of the word "telephone", for instance. Apart from the item the term actually describes, a very specialized term like "telephone" carries such a load of cultural baggage that it points strongly, almost exclusively, to our own timeline. For instance, "post-industrial-revolution society" is always implied, as is "high technology available to the masses" and "devices invented through, or as byproduct of, the systematic application of science". These associations make it inadequate for any world with a different history, even if the item does really exist. I would find it necessary to use a different term, probably something as general as "far-speaking device".

As for the terms in question, as a non-native speaker of English I don't know their history well enough to make an informed decision. As a rule, I think it's better to be safe than sorry.

Please try to understand what I wrote before telling me I am wrong - I said cross referencing to a term that does not exist in the world being referenced is annoying, which is what you are implying with your 'telephone' analogy. As for the modern words - even if you were to write the world with words that are a century old, it would still feel awkward. Try writing the FR in Vicotrian English and you will find how unseemly it looks.

[Ieldra]

Just to wrap this OT excursion up: I did not say I preferred old terms. I said it was better to use terms that do not have so much cultural baggage. For instance, more general descriptive terms instead of specialized technical (in the broadest sense) terms.