37 replies to this topic

[Lemernis]

Is there a relatively easy way for me to give Bub Snikt the Irish brawler BG1 voice ("Time fer a bit 'o the rough and tumble!")? Like putting it in the override folder or something, with the sound files properly renamed? Not a big deal, but I've always liked that voice and it seems to fit the portrait. Any direction will be appreciated. Tnx.

[Miloch]

You'd have to put the sounds in the override (in the right WAVC format) then patch the CRE files to reference the soundsets.

However, he has an entirely new and complete soundset (written by yours truly and voiced very nicely by Red Carnelian) that I think is actually pretty close to what you want. Maybe even closer. Also he has an alternative (pseudo-baldurised) portrait. I gave this content to erebusant for the next BGT release. Not sure where he is with that. If you want, I could write a patch for you (since it either exists in the Tutu version already or I'd have to write it) but if erebusant's done it already, his version will probably be more applicable to BGT.

[Azazello]

Some of us purists would like the original content maintained, and the new content made an optional component.

[erebusant]

Some of us purists would like the original content maintained, and the new content made an optional component.

New DSotSC components: Alternative NPC Soundsets; Could probably set it up to install all at once, or individually. Comments?...

[Miloch]

Some of us purists would like the original content maintained, and the new content made an optional component.

The new soundsets are not alternatives; they had no soundsets originally. We certainly wouldn't've bothered with it otherwise, as we have quite a bit of work on our hands with the Tutu conversion as it is. Being as how all the other DSotSC NPCs had full soundsets, we recorded the ones who did not (Bardo, Bub and Thorfinn) for consistency purposes.

(Edit: And I would think as a "purist" you might have known that . For that matter, Bardo's sounds were translated directly from the existing German soundset with practically no changes, only a few additions, since even in the German set several clips that the other NPCs have were missing.)

Edited by Miloch, 02 August 2008 - 10:40 PM.

[Chevalier]

Miloch,

I do like your new portraits, but prefer (mostly) the original ones and don't you dare change Jet's sound set. I would very likely use more of the DSotSC NPCs if there was more dialogue (how about a Jet'Laya Romance?). Although one of my biggest problems in my last play though was the conflict over which of the NPCs to have in the party (NPCs for their story development or for a well rounded party).

[Miloch]

I do like your new portraits, but prefer (mostly) the original ones and don't you dare change Jet's sound set. I would very likely use more of the DSotSC NPCs if there was more dialogue (how about a Jet'Laya Romance?). Although one of my biggest problems in my last play though was the conflict over which of the NPCs to have in the party (NPCs for their story development or for a well rounded party).

The portraits are an optional component (though not, sigh, an optional component for each NPC currently...). No one's changed Jet'laya's soundset, except to subsample some missing clips from her existing set (probably not amounting to more than an "oof" or a sigh here or there). As for the dialogue, feel free to write some. There's been an outstanding post on it for some time on CoM, but it's never really gone anywhere, not even on the old boards. I will be coding an inter-party banter component though. The reason for this is because most of the NPCs already have banter lines recorded, but most likely you'll never hear them. And the reason for that is the original modders didn't enable it fully, probably because they didn't have the vast knowledge of the IESDP that we now have. I'm sure they'd've wanted to; otherwise, those lines they recorded just go to waste.

[Lemernis]

I'm glad to see this is being developed. Bub had nary a word to say on the way down to, and through, the Nashkel mines. With the Bioware PC soundset and no dialogues it was really no different than making a multiplayer custom PC. IIRC some of the original DSotSC NPCs had custom voiced soundsets. But some were poor recording quality, or not particularly well voice acted. Too bad, because the Dark Side NPC character concepts were all pretty good, I thought.

I'm beginning to appreciate how crucial the voice acting is to a character in a game like this. For example, Hubblepot's overall content for the character didn't blow me away (it was fine) but the voice acting was superb. The voice acting alone makes that a highly enjoyable mod. On the other hand, I've also played mods where a lot of work has clearly gone into them but the voice acting just isn't up to Bioware's standard and the mod really suffers for it. It's a shame to see good work go to waste, but that's the nature of the marketplace. It takes me darn near four months to complete a run through the saga. So I'm spending a lot of time with these characters, really--I want to like their company. And if the voice acting isn't good then it's sometimes a bit of a chore to stick it out to take in the full content that has been written for them.

What got me thinking about this was appreciating just how good the Bioware voice acting is for Nimbul, the assassin who attacks the party in Nashkel. Nimbul might just about be my favorite voiceacting in the entire BG series.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. But I hope you can find topnotch voice actors for your efforts.

Serious suggestion: maybe post of the need for voice actors on acting school's websites. (Many universities have a Drama department.) The voice actors wouldn't be getting paid, no. But it's good experience for them, and depending on how well they do it might be something they can boast or get credit for in shcool, etc.

Edited by Lemernis, 03 August 2008 - 01:59 AM.

[Miloch]

IIRC some of the original DSotSC NPCs had custom voiced soundsets. But some were poor recording quality, or not particularly well voice acted.

All of them had soundsets except the ones I mentioned (though I think Keiria and Skeezer were added later at some point). They're all pretty good I think; some are even exceptional, except poor CuChoinneach, who is also the original author. Sadly though, his clips suffered from some poor recording (as I commented here).

But I hope you can find topnotch voice actors for your efforts.

Bub's voicing is topnotch IMO. Not sure I can say the same about whomever (cough) voiced Bardo and Thorfinn, but we didn't exactly have an onslaught of applicants, so we did what we could (they ended up better than CuChoinneach's anyway). And I can say that technically, at least, the clips aren't too far from the game's (as far as recording levels, background noise removed, etc.). One thing I hear often about NPC mods is that X's clips are too loud or too soft - that is one thing usually easy to remedy.

Serious suggestion: maybe post of the need for voice actors on acting school's websites.

Maybe not a bad idea, for future reference.

Don't get too excited about the interparty banter. It's nothing like BG1 NPC, but it should be something like the sort of exchanges you see between NPCs occasionally in the unmodded BG1. I'd extend the same invitation to you if you feel like writing some dialogue (as you've done for Yoshimo).

Edited by Miloch, 03 August 2008 - 04:41 AM.

[Lemernis]

I'd enjoy writing some dialogue, sure. I can't promise that I will actually find the time to complete a whole lot, but I definitely will try to help out as much as I can. PM details about any NPCs that need dialogue.

Edited by Lemernis, 03 August 2008 - 04:57 AM.

[Miloch]

PM details about any NPCs that need dialogue.

All of them . I posted their biographies here. Apart from their soundsets, that's about all we have to go on. Take a look at the .tra files in DSotSC\Language\english\D to see how much existing dialogue they have (or don't have). You'll be hard-pressed to find more than a couple lines for any of them.

[Azazello]

Some of us purists would like the original content maintained, and the new content made an optional component.

The new soundsets are not alternatives; they had no soundsets originally. We certainly wouldn't've bothered with it otherwise, as we have quite a bit of work on our hands with the Tutu conversion as it is. Being as how all the other DSotSC NPCs had full soundsets, we recorded the ones who did not (Bardo, Bub and Thorfinn) for consistency purposes.

(Edit: And I would think as a "purist" you might have known that . For that matter, Bardo's sounds were translated directly from the existing German soundset with practically no changes, only a few additions, since even in the German set several clips that the other NPCs have were missing.)

Miloch, you're doing that Thing again. We talked about this...

No one is questioning your hard work. In fact, we praise it.

First you say none of of the NPCs had soundsets, then you say some do, then you say some had only partial. I think the confusion is due to your working on several versions. (The original DS/NTotSC was a German mod? I did not know this.)

Call me a "SHS purist" then... In the DS/NTotSC version for BGT, some of the chars have limited but unique soundsets, and some had none. Whatever. I propose we maintain this 'original' version, and give a choice to players to use the updated content.

Acceptable?

[Chevalier]

DSotSC was an English language mod and NTotSC was developed in Polish. I Remember when they first cam out. Anything like sound set restoration and bug fixing should be in the standard mod and all new content and changes (like Portraits and item changes) should be additional components (like one for Portraits, one for Item changes, and one for additional dialogue). I have a few ideas about dialogues, more on this later.

[Miloch]

Miloch, you're doing that Thing again. We talked about this...

Eh, quit talking to me as if I'm a child, son... I'm probably old enough to be your grandpappy (if you had orc in your blood... which is probably extremely dilute if you do ).

First you say none of of the NPCs had soundsets, then you say some do, then you say some had only partial.

Whoa, who said none of them have soundsets? If you misinterpreted something that way, please let me correct that misunderstanding.

The new soundsets* are not alternatives; they* had no soundsets originally.

The new soundsets that we added (i.e., Bardo, Bub and Thorfinn) are not alternatives; they (i.e., the same aforementioned NPCs) had no soundsets originally.

And when I say "no soundsets," perhaps I should clarify that further too, though it might well give you more material over which to quibble . They had no mod-added content, with the exception of Bardo who had a German soundset but not an English one, as I've mentioned. Bub and Thorfinn had a few generic clips not added by DSotSC but assigned to either the default NPC (in Bub's case) or to other NPCs (in both cases) in the unmodded game. In Bub's case, we have preserved those few clips (really, only one actual voiced clip, as I mentioned here) in much the same vein, thanks to RC's exceptional voice acting. And as Icendoan mentions in that post, it's not as if you're losing anything, since other NPCs use the same line in the unmodded game. In Thorfinn's case, the new clips aren't far from the few generic BG1 clips he had. And erebusant tells me although Thorfinn exists as a CRE in the BGT version, he isn't actually spawned, so none of you would've encountered him previously if that's true, which doesn't really surprise me.

I think the confusion is due to your working on several versions. (The original DS/NTotSC was a German mod? I did not know this.)

No, it was an English (Scottish if you want to be precise) mod, but our German friends added some content that was not there originally, much in the same spirit as we have done. Bardo had no sound set (except perhaps a few generic Gullykin halfling clips), so they voiced him. We are not changing any existing mod content, but adding to it, which is, I think, what keeps this mod alive. And I'm not working on several versions - I'm working on the Tutu version. I happen to be collaborating with erebusant and sharing information between versions, because I think it helps both, and we are not (either one of us, as erebusant's collaboration on Tutu shows) of the mind that our version/mod/platform is the "best." Or even if we are, we aren't of the mind that we can't help each other improve.

And now, I've got an some interparty banter code to write, so erebusant might include it in his forthcoming update, and so the lines the original authors wrote and the original actors voiced won't go to waste, as I'm sure they did not intend (why would they have written and voiced the content otherwise?). And if you convince him not to include it, or to make it optional, fine with me. It's going in the Tutu version; I just though in the interest of "community spirit" () I'd offer it to you BGT players. I welcome (and even agree with for the most part) this discussion, but some of it seems a bit reactionary, and in the time I've spent responding to it, I probably could've coded that banter component.

(@Chev, as I said, do feel free to write something. I agree that significant added content should be optional, but adding a line here or there that was missing previously should be core. Changing something from the original mod's content should also be optional, but we're not even talking about that here, for the most part.)

[Edit: And wait a second... if you're so concerned about purity, why are you playing the BGT mod anyway? You should be playing the original TeamBG mod on original BG1. I can tell you for fact there are gaping differences, and if you've played both, I'd be very interested in discussing them with you, since I have not done that - I've only looked at the code of both, which are like two lost languages only distantly related, if that.]

Edited by Miloch, 03 August 2008 - 08:56 PM.

[Miloch]

Whoa. Ok, I just had a listen the the BGT versions of Bub and Bardo, and I have to say - WTF?

Bardo has a bunch of soundclips assigned as invalid references, and almost all of them are the *same* invalid reference. There are a few exceptions - he has some legitimate soundclips for a handful of slots pretty far down the list, such as critical miss and so forth. These are all very *human* sounding clips that weren't assigned on the original mod's CRE. They are also unquestionably inappropriate for a halfling, but if you want to retain them, be my guest.

As for Bub... heh. Where do I begin? Well, he has pretty much the *same* generic human male soundclips as Bardo. At least the ones he had in the unmodded game sounded *somewhat* in character, but not these. They sound more appropriate to a paladin, and if you've ever wondered what a paladin who's just picked someone's pocket should sound like, have a listen to male0054.wav (not that you'd ever hear that with an un-L1NPC-ified Bub, but Bardo has the same clip). If I'm not mistaken, I think it's the first generic male PC soundset ("To battle, and victory!").

I have infinite respect for SBB and erebusant as modders and gentlemen, but whoever was responsible for this (and I'm not blaming either, as I don't know)... WTF were you thinking? I'm sorry, but I can't really be a party to, or even understand, Azazello's argument for "SHS purity," at least not in this case. It hasn't improved upon the original, and understandably, it could have in this case, since there was little or no content on which to improve.

And as for Thorfinn, erebusant is right - the BGT version neglected to add him.

Edited by Miloch, 03 August 2008 - 11:52 PM.

[Chevalier]

They are also unquestionably inappropriate for a halfling, but if you want to retain them, be my guest.

Yes I do. I generally don't like him and have never use him with my games. As maintainers of the mod you, SBB & erebusant should fix not changed him, but I think it would be cool and I might even play once with him in my party for awhile if you made a component that improved him in what ever way you think best.

There are modders out there that think it is alright to change the game anyway they wish, but hate and protest if you change their mod one little bit. To help give them a little peace of mind, it would be nice to show that mods are fix/updated not changed in ways they might not like. When a mod, like DSotSC, is abandoned by its creators I think it is fine to update it (as in WieDUizing it) or fixing bugs. Also it should be alright to mod a mod so long as you clearly identify what you are changing (like using additional components or a second mod you install after). If a mod is not abandoned it is nice (correct) if you get the authors approval.

There are items that are way Uber Uber and are likely broken. They should be fixed and an optional component that keeps their spirit (Uber) but makes them more balanced (a daily number of charges or limited time duration). I keep most of them in my bag of holding (only taking them out if I find an Uber opponent that I can't defeat) and I am saving them for ToB (if I ever get there again).

Miloch I think you are doing great work! Keep it up! These are just my thoughts.

[Miloch]

They are also unquestionably inappropriate for a halfling, but if you want to retain them, be my guest.

Yes I do. I generally don't like him and have never use him with my games. As maintainers of the mod you, SBB & erebusant should fix not changed him, but I think it would be cool and I might even play once with him in my party for awhile if you made a component that improved him in what ever way you think best.

Ok, well I think I understand you, but just to make sure we understand each other...

1) When you say "Yes I do," it means, yes, you may actually want to retain Bardo as an NPC, but not necessarily his erroneously-assigned (by the BGT-version only) human paladin sound clips? And if I'm wrong on that, and you do wish the latter, someone would have to look into what the correct human paladin clips are and assign them correctly. As I said, the original mod did not have these, but only a few generic Gullykin halfling sound clips. Personally, I couldn't conceive of offering the "human paladin soundclip" option in the Tutu mod (since, aside from other concerns of propriety, it's not even in the original mod) but I make no claims on the BGT version.

2) When you say "I generally don't like him and have never use him with my games." there's probably a reason for it, and the reason could well be lack of (appropriate) content? Looking at his stats, and even his dialogue (what little there is) and his purpose (which I won't give away, since that'd be somewhat of a spoiler to those who haven't played the mod), I think he'd make a great NPC under the right circumstances, so perhaps we're on the same page there.

3) We haven't changed DSotSC content of this NPC (or anything else I'm aware of) - we've only added things that were obviously lacking, to the extent they would possibly qualify as bugfixes if they were defects in the vanilla game. So again, I think we're on the same page there.

As for your other points, I agree, though they may go beyond the scope of what I'm doing (a combined/fixed BG1/Tutu mod in the spirit of the original). We have corrected some of the more glaring issues in our version, though those would probably have to be reverse-engineered to make a BGT component out of them. That could prove difficult, since the resource names are all different for one thing. I also respect what's been done on the BGT version, with some reservations, like the ones I felt necessary to voice above. There have been apparently some improvements (such as on maps and perhaps scripts) but I'm not always clear on what those are, so I appreciate your input.

[Lemernis]

I'm just going to weigh in as a fan that in this one man's opinion there is nothing sacrosanct about a mod like DSotSC. By all means, make it better! I don't see any reason that the original version cannot be maintained for those who wish to play it in its original form. But it can most definitely be improved, and I have little doubt that those who are new to it will appreciate the changes.

* I'm glad to hear that a proper BG2 dragon replaces the wyvern. Ideally, for a Tutu version I would see if you could use David Wallace's excellent SCS scripting for the dragon's AI. Ditto for Dark Side's kobolds and drow.

* Re-voicing some of the soundsets would be welcome to most players, I'm sure. (Chu Choinneach's badly needs it.) And a few interjections and a bit of interparty banter sounds great! The current Bub Snikt stock Bioware PC soundset soundset is not a good match to his personality/portrait, as we've been saying. (Also, Bub's avatar should have red hair to match the portrait.) I haven't looked at any of the other NPCs and won't have an opportunity to in this game, but I'm sure there are tweaks that can be made that will improve the characters.

* Dark Side has significant play balance issues. The mod includes items and spells that, while fun, are overpowered by most players' standards. (Also, it is immersion breaking to FR fans that items of a deity not found in the Forgotten Realms are sold in a temple of Lathander.) For me play balance trumps all--I want the good challenge. Not spells and items that allow me to breeze through the game. Many of DSotSC's custom items and spells should be toned down at least. With SCS installed, let's say, it's more reasonable to have some of this content. But even with more challenging tactical AI I think most of that stuff is unbalancing on the whole.

To reemphasize: as long as the mirror host can do it, I see no reason why not to offer the game in it's (mostly) original version, and offer a significantly improved version for those who want to see this fun mod made better.

As an analogy to this, I think of David Wallace's Sword Coast Stratagems AI scripting. That superb mod finally gives us the Baldur's Gate game that the developers really should have from the start, in which enemies behave much more like the player. The game thereby becomes more challenging and immersive. One could make a 'purist' argument that that is a corruption of designer intent. But imvho that would just be silly. Different strokes for different folks, and all. But I think the majority of current and future afficianados of the BG series will appreciate a badly needed upgrade to DSotSC.

[erebusant]

You should be playing the original TeamBG mod on original BG1. I can tell you for fact there are gaping differences, and if you've played both, I'd be very interested in discussing them with you, since I have not done that - I've only looked at the code of both, which are like two lost languages only distantly related, if that.]

Where can I get a copy to look over?
As far as soundsets, or lack of them are concerned, the following is what is done for Bub and Bardo in the BGT DSotSC .tp2

COPY ~DSotSC/CRE/DSBUB.cre~ ~override~ 
SAY NAME1 @2004 
SAY NAME2 @2004 
COPY ~DSotSC/CRE/DSBUB6.cre~ ~override~
SAY NAME1 @2004
SAY NAME2 @2004
COPY ~DSotSC/CRE/DSBARDO.cre~ ~override~ 
SAY NAME1 @2002 
SAY NAME2 @2002 
SAY 0xa4 @20301
SAY 0xa8 @20302
SAY 0xac @20304
SAY 0xb0 @20305
SAY 0xb4 @20306
SAY 0xb8 @20307
SAY 0xbc @20308
SAY 0xc0 @20309
SAY 0xc4 @20310
SAY 0xc8 @20303
SAY 0xec @20338
SAY 0xf0 @20339
SAY 0xf4 @20311
SAY 0xf8 @20312
SAY 0xfc @20313
SAY 0x100 @20314
SAY 0x104 @20315
SAY 0x108 @20316
SAY 0x10c @20317
SAY 0x110 @20318
SAY 0x114 @20319
SAY 0x124 @20320
SAY 0x128 @20321
SAY 0x12c @20322
SAY 0x130 @20323
SAY 0x134 @20324
SAY 0x138 @20325
SAY 0x13c @20326

So Bardo has something of a soundset, and Bub has none. If the existing Bardo sounds like a human, then it needs changing as far as I'm concerned since it's just plain wrong, and Bub needs a soundset. It's easy enough to make them both into an optional component. How's "Add and Restore Realistic NPC Soundsets" grab you for a component?

Edited by erebusant, 04 August 2008 - 04:54 AM.

[Azazello]

Miloch I think you are doing great work! Keep it up! These are just my thoughts.

These are my thoughts too! I wrote so above.

Miloch, still love me?