14 replies to this topic

[Lemernis]

It's been a long time since I played Dark Side. I've only played it once before, way back when Team BG released it. This time around it was great fun to finally play it with the BG2 engine (I especially enjoyed the green dragon battle). I thank the creators of the original for making it, and erebusant for maintaining it. The mod has some really good content.

That said, I cannot hold back regarding what I think are some serious problems with the mod.

The best adjective I can come up with that sums up my reaction... exemplified by Othos's quest... is:

Overkill.

The following list of criticims for Otho's quest can be generalized to much of the rest of mod:

- The duergar/drow maze of areas is ridiculously long and tedious. So much so that it loses its fun value. Less than halfway I found myself very consciously just wanting it to end already.
- Loot drops are hugely unbalanced for BG1. Items abound that have no business appearing in BG1.
- The battle in the chamber when you encounter Trollslayer is impossibly difficult due to its seemingly endless respawns of backstabbing thieves and clerics (protected by globe of invulnerability). I had a well balanced party* around level 9, and it seemed virtually unwinnable. After several hours I ended up doing something I have never done just to get it over with--I Ctrl+Y'ed the thieves and clerics. It had gotten so absurd trying to win this thing that I felt I just needed to move on, regardless.

The authors of this quest appear to have had no real understanding of the importance of play balance in a mod. Nearly everything about the duergar/drow maze they went overboard with. To the point of absurdity. And this tendency on the part of the authors definitely shows up in other quests, though not to the same degree.

I appreciate the wish to keep the mod in its original state out of respect to its authors. There is something admirable about that. But erebusant, Miloch, and whoever else... perhaps one day you might consider offering a revised version of DSotSC alongside the original. I know it would be a big project, but this mod is badly in need of an overhaul, with a keen eye toward getting play balance right. I would recommend eliminating all but a couple of the BG2 items. Maybe have a handful of original custom +3 type items, and a few relatively low level BG2 spells, etc. Tone down the worst of the encounters. Shorten the duergar/drow maze to at least one quarter the length.

As this mod stands, this mod drops far too many uber items that figure to make too easy work of enemies for the remainder of the game. The final quest is so unbalanced that it ends Dark Side on a sour note.

Naturally this is just one player's opinion. And I realize the player doesn't have to use the uber items that are dropped. But if people are totally honest about it, I think they would agree that in the balance its preferable not to tempt players with overpowered items to begin with.




* SK hacked multiclass Kensai 7-Mage 8
Imoen - Thief 10
Ajantis - Paladin 10
Branwen - Cleric 8
Dynahier - Invoker 9
Coran - Fighter 7-Thief 8

Edited by Lemernis, 25 October 2008 - 11:08 AM.

[Leomar]

Thanks for your opinion about DSotSC.

Here you can read about more gamer opinions:
http://www.shsforums...showtopic=37036

And here you can read about a discussion to balance DSotSC (is an older thread):
http://www.shsforums...showtopic=23363

erebusant has much done, to release new versions of the big BG1 mods and I can understand if he don't want to balance them, too. So the future will show us, what happens with the mods in this case. Perhaps other modders can work with erebusant together...

Greetings Leomar

[Lemernis]

Thanks for the links. I'll add my comments there.

I should add that I had SCS installed, making every opponent smarter and tougher. So thieves continually gulped down potions of invisibility, and priests pre-cast defensive spells and used SCS spellcasting routines. But the endless respawning isn't something that I've ever seen David Wallace do with SCS. So to be fair, maybe it is only when SCS is combined with the original scripting that this fight (when meeting Trollslayer) becomes almost impossible.

[10th]

@ endless respawns
As you already stated in your first post, it only seems to be that way. There are around 50 Duergar in that room.

With your CHARNAME being a Fighter/Mage with Kensai as a kit you shouldn't have that much problems with that fight. Moreover the rest of your Party also looks OK.

General tactics involving large battles:
Pre-buff as much as possible. That includes, but is not limited to, Mirror Images, Spirit Armor, Haste, Protection from Evil 10' radius, Defensive Harmony, Bless and Aid.

Divide and conquer. Use Web, Stinking Cloud and Entangle to prevent enemies from participating in the current battle. If you want to be on the safe side stay in a defensible spot (in this case the entrance corridor).

If you've also installed NTotSC, it's even easier. Buy some scrolls of Stoneskin to protect Dynaheir and CHARNAME.

10th

[Lemernis]

The party was well buffed for the battle.

The respawning went on and on--all I can tell you is that with SCS installed there are far more than 50 enemies in that room. There are about fifty when you first enter, yes. The soldiers are easy to dispatch and do not respawn. It is the the gangs of thieves and clerics that were respawning on me. I would kill them. But they respawned about 7-10 times. And they were made more difficult to handle by SCS scripting, to be sure. Here's what I'm running with SCS:

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #10 // Correct various errors on race, class etc
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #50 // Re-introduce potions of extra-healing
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #60 // Faster Bears
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #70 // Allow player to choose NPC proficiencies and skills
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #100 // Allow Yeslick to use axes
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #110 // Move NPCs to more convenient locations
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #120 // Smarter general AI
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #130 // Better calls for help
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #140 // Potions for NPCs
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #160 // Smarter mages
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #170 // Mages pre-cast defensive spells
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #180 // Smarter priests
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #190 // Priests pre-cast defensive spells
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #200 // Smarter deployment
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #230 // Smarter sirines and dryads
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #240 // Slightly harder carrion crawlers
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #250 // Smarter basilisks
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #260 // Improved doppelgangers
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #270 // Tougher Black Talons and Iron Throne guards
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #280 // Relocated bounty hunters
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #290 // Improved Ulcaster
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #300 // Improved Balduran's Isle
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #310 // Improved Durlag's Tower
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #320 // Improved Demon Cultists
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #330 // Improved miscellaneous encounters
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #340 // Tougher chapter-two end battle
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #350 // Tougher chapter-three end battle
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #360 // Tougher chapter-four end battle
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #370 // Tougher chapter-five end battle
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #380 // Tougher chapter-six end battle
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #390 // Improved final battle
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #410 // Remove blur effect from displacer cloak
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #420 // Stackable ankheg shells and winterwolf pelts
~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #440 // Ease-of-use player AI

Edited by Lemernis, 26 October 2008 - 03:49 AM.

[Turambar]

I counted them. There were 84 duergar that I had to use Ctrl-Y on because I got so tired of that battle. The rest of DSOTSC had interesting challenges, the dragon and the lich were both great, Dearthmac was challenging, but Otho's quest was pretty much garbage in my opinion. That room also just about killed my computer with how much it slowed things down.

I do agree that the dungen is far too long; moreover, the areas are all the same; there are some 3 or 4 ankheg caves and werewolves caves just in that dungeon, and that's really boring! Moreover, they had even the same traps and the creatures were in the same places!

I didn't have so much problems in that battle; there were really many spawns, but probably, SCS is too much for that.
Anyway, I found thieves really useful there, both for dispelling illusions and backstabbing (Shar Teel, having str 18/52, is really powerful when she backstabs). Anyway, you need a high AC to survive, and I had keiria, Shar Teel, Kivan, myself, who have a very high DEX.

Anyway, I've looked at how the spawns work.
There are some traps, which activate the dsduegtr.bcs script, which creates 4 to 6 duergar every time.
The traps have a 'reset trap' flag; I don't know very well how scripts work, but this one should only spawn if GlobalLT("FerthgDuergr","GLOBAL",6) , and this variable is incremented at every spawn. This should mean, no more than 40-50 duergar.
Could you check that your script has that line as well?
In my game, that's the only script which creates DSduergars; you might change-log it, if it's been changed, in case some other mod removes that control.

The items are not actually all so unbalanced for the other DS and NT quests, but I agree that DS should improve some other enemies in the rest of the game, and perhaps these items are too many (especially for druids, there's an awful lot of stuff for them); anyway, the Aurora's price adjustements are really important here. Anyway, powerful items can also make the game more difficult, when they're used by enemies. I think tha main problem is that DS and NT add some enemies at the beginning of the game, but they don't make the end difficult enough; spawning more assasins under the Siren's Tavern, more enemies in the undercity, in the Iron Throne Palace, and in some other quests as well, would be great.

anyway, are you using the latest version of DS, for BGT? And do you have NT as well?

Edited by Turambar, 01 October 2010 - 04:53 AM.

[Chevalier]

I do agree that the dungen is far too long; moreover, the areas are all the same; there are some 3 or 4 ankheg caves and werewolves caves just in that dungeon, and that's really boring! Moreover, they had even the same traps and the creatures were in the same places!

I really disagree with you here!!! I remember playing this mod for the first time as part of BG1 (before BG2 came out) and after a few maps started getting the feeling of really being in the Underdark. Remember the technology available to the modders at the time was very limited and they needed to reuse maps. There are newer better mods out there, but I still enjoy playing DSotSC.

[Turambar]

I really disagree with you here!!! I remember playing this mod for the first time as part of BG1 (before BG2 came out) and after a few maps started getting the feeling of really being in the Underdark. Remember the technology available to the modders at the time was very limited and they needed to reuse maps. There are newer better mods out there, but I still enjoy playing DSotSC.

I agree that the underdark should be a big dungeon, and I liked the first maps too, but that dungeon is really too long and repetitive.

some of the recycled maps were actually nice; the candlekeep maps in the daerthmac citadel were really good with the vampires and undead, but, as I said, the underdark was a bit too much, and there were some incongruences, between the different kinds of entrances: the cloakwood elevator, the direction of the stairs,...
And the three werewolf-caves maps, exactly the same, one near the other are really boring.
NT uses recicled pieces as well, but it mixes them a bit more, and I liked that a lot.
Anyway, I agree that DS should not be too much modified, but I think that giving the choice between the original one and a newer and revised version could be nice, without spoiling the original.

[Miloch]

Anyway, I agree that DS should not be too much modified, but I think that giving the choice between the original one and a newer and revised version could be nice, without spoiling the original.

Sounds like stuff for your twixpack (tweak/fix pack) perhaps...

At the time the original mod was written, the authors had only BG1 content to work with, but now you can rip stuff from any IE game (see here for some PS:T dungeons I exported, for example) or design your own if you're that talented/motivated.

[Turambar]

Sounds like stuff for your twixpack (tweak/fix pack) perhaps...

At the time the original mod was written, the authors had only BG1 content to work with, but now you can rip stuff from any IE game (see here for some PS:T dungeons I exported, for example) or design your own if you're that talented/motivated.

I know it's quite an old mod, and it's really great, especially considering when it was written.

I haven't tried working with areas yet (what editor would you suggest, for them?), and it would be quite a lot of work, as I'd need to change the spawns as well, to move some actors, and so on. What games' areas are compatible with BG2? I mean, is it possible, without having to change too much, to use areas from all IE games?
And that wouldn't be the original DSotSC anymore.

What I could do, if I had time, would be to write a new DSotSC, making it clear that it's not the original anymore, and upload it as a new mod, with all the fixes and changes I've included yet, and any other I could think of or anyone could suggest.

Edited by Turambar, 03 October 2010 - 01:41 AM.

[Miloch]

I haven't tried working with areas yet (what editor would you suggest, for them?)

DLTCEP is the best editor for areas, and follow Yovaneth's tutorial if you need to get started. There is a function (soon to be in WeiDU) that can add or remove any structures from existing areas. Easier than trying to work with old code hundreds of lines long if you need to change things.

What I could do, if I had time, would be to write a new DSotSC, making it clear that it's not the original anymore, and upload it as a new mod, with all the fixes and changes I've included yet, and any other I could think of or anyone could suggest.

I have been working on a Tutu conversion of the mod for some time, using the original BG1 mod as a base, with a goal of preserving the original mod where sensible, but fixing bugs and balancing anything that is clearly out of line. It would be cool to have an alternate "enhanced" option. I think you could use different areas where the DS ones are unchanged copies of BG1 areas. You can either rip them from other IE games (all but IWD2 use the same format, and even that is fairly easy to convert) or just change the area around a bit, like reverse or recolour it. I think you could follow the same basic layout of the original, but change, add or remove things where it is too monotonous now, to make things more interesting.

[Turambar]

I haven't tried working with areas yet (what editor would you suggest, for them?)

DLTCEP is the best editor for areas, and follow Yovaneth's tutorial if you need to get started. There is a function (soon to be in WeiDU) that can add or remove any structures from existing areas. Easier than trying to work with old code hundreds of lines long if you need to change things.

What I could do, if I had time, would be to write a new DSotSC, making it clear that it's not the original anymore, and upload it as a new mod, with all the fixes and changes I've included yet, and any other I could think of or anyone could suggest.

I have been working on a Tutu conversion of the mod for some time, using the original BG1 mod as a base, with a goal of preserving the original mod where sensible, but fixing bugs and balancing anything that is clearly out of line. It would be cool to have an alternate "enhanced" option. I think you could use different areas where the DS ones are unchanged copies of BG1 areas. You can either rip them from other IE games (all but IWD2 use the same format, and even that is fairly easy to convert) or just change the area around a bit, like reverse or recolour it. I think you could follow the same basic layout of the original, but change, add or remove things where it is too monotonous now, to make things more interesting.

if I write a new version of the mod, I think I won't use WEidu to edit it, but I'll directly modify the files.
Is there any program which changes bg2 areas into iwd2 ones, and vice versa?
Anyway, I might leave some areas as they are (the three woods are ok, in my opinion); I'd only change the underdark dungeon, but it would be a radical change, and maybe the Daerthmac-Durlag Tower and its Firewine-Dungeon (which has a completely different tileset from candlekeep). I was thinking of the IWD2 goblin caves, and I'll look at other IE caves as well; using them would be much nicer.
I'll think of what items are so unbalanced; anyway, I think that adding extra enemies to the BG subquests and Candlekeep would also be nice.

Finally, I would definitly recommend the aurora subcomponents to reduce the creature carried gold; perhaps, a similar XP reduction would be useful as well (or a reduction in XP rewards): Chateau Irenicus gets particularly boring if you are already level 11-12 when you start there! Is there any mod which makes SoA for high-level parties more interesting?

Edited by Turambar, 03 October 2010 - 04:14 AM.

[Miloch]

Is there any program which changes bg2 areas into iwd2 ones, and vice versa?

Heh, you seem to have a knack for posting right after me so I never see it . There is the area cleaner, but I don't know how well it performs. I think I tried it on an area we used in Aurora but it crashed on load, so I ended up rebuilding the whole .wed by hand. Then again, that was one of my first areas so I could've done something wrong with the conversion. Also I think you might be able to open it in DLTCEP, change the area version (on the first tab) then resave it as something else and that might do the trick too. You'll have to clean all the IWD2 resource references out, or copy them over too (ambients, campfire animations, things like that).

Chateau Irenicus gets particularly boring if you are already level 11-12 when you start there! Is there any mod which makes SoA for high-level parties more interesting?

Umm... I don't know, SCS2 maybe? BP, Tactics, etc.? Or are you talking about something else?