38 replies to this topic

[Lollorian]

Ya learn something everyday (... and it seems to be happening unusually frequently nowadays )

Cheers,
Lol

[Jarno Mikkola]

They were designed more for footmen to kill horsemen.

Erhm, I am pretty sure the weapon(halberd) is actually used to kill the horse, not the man riding on it... this way, when the heavy knight is on the ground, you can come in with superior forces and knock/poke him to death... and you have more mass to aim it against.

[Chevalier]

What!!! Kill a very valuable horse???? They often didn't want to really kill the horseman but disable them so they can ransom him! How else could you make money? Well, selling his weapons and armor.


True, they did kill horses and horsemen. I was not going into details on the ways to use the Halberd and Lochaber Axe. The hook that I have seen on all Lochaber Axes that I have studied would be used to entangle the opponent so others could kill or capture him.




Lollorian, is that enough smilies??

[yarpen]

They are wrong. I do have some background in historical weapons. First lets talk class (social not D&D), a pole arm is a peasant weapon.

They were quite cheap, allowed to get some simple advantage even when you're non-skilled in fight thanks to range. In Europe knights were using only lances, halberds are domain of henchmans and guards. It's also not so difficult to spot in japaneese culture where men couldn't use spears - it was female's favourite weapon

Right, in european medieval wars knights weren't killed because of money, which their family could put on table for rescuing him from enemie's hands.

No, they are foot soldiers weapons. Cavaliers are mounted fighters.

I think that kit should be focused more on 'brave but stupid' knight than on being mounted fighter. I dunno how it looks in english (about Cavalier/Cavailer word) but polish 'Kawaler' fits far more to footman (Order of Swordman Cavaliers).

Edited by yarpen, 27 December 2009 - 10:00 AM.

[Lollorian]

Well, all kinds of RTS's seem to make the spear/pike/polearm line have some sorta bonus against cavalry (and yeah, I do imagine gory scenes of horse-kebab when I see pikes ) ... but,

... return to Cavalier, return to the Cavalier

About the smilies ... <Burns' voice>Eeeexxcellent</voice>

Cheers,
Lol

[Chevalier]

No, they are foot soldiers weapons. Cavaliers are mounted fighters.

I think that kit should be focused more on 'brave but stupid' knight than on being mounted fighter. I dunno how it looks in english (about Cavalier/Cavailer word) but polish 'Kawaler' fits far more to footman (Order of Swordman Cavaliers).

Cavalier (English)/Chevalier (French) means horseman.

[Lollorian]

OR

Chivalry + Fighter = Cavalier??

The guy who's the quintessential saver of damsels-in-distress™ (not necessarily associated with religion ... like Paladins )

Cheers,
Lol

[Chevalier]

Or

Noble + Fighter = Knight Heavy armored 'en nobled' warrior for the good of the kingdom. Like you say not a 'holy warrior' or Paladin. Ritter is the German for Chevalier, so Knight might not be as strongly associated with riding.


Chivalry means 'horse ridingness'. A whole code of conduct developed around the mounted warriors. Starting with rules for combat with other knights, then behavior at court. Really no rules about killing peasants and infidels.

Edited by Chevalier, 27 December 2009 - 10:38 AM.

[yarpen]

And here we come with european nomencalture for a word 'knight'. Please, don't try this. Nearly every country had other classes table where knight had a lot of meanings. And when you connect this with barons, pars, non-pars, hrabias and whole of this sh*tty stuff, gah. Knight isn't the 'battle unit' but title gained from landlord, there were knights who weren't capable of properly wielding sword so associating these two isn't the best solution.

Really no rules about killing peasants and infidels.

Only about their peasants, because someone's other peasant was his good. So rules were very similiar to destroying a thing: payment.

[Chevalier]

Very true yarpen. I was thinking to use Knight as a status and Cavalier as a fighting style. I am looking for a term for a noble warrior kit not directly related to horse riding.

Really no rules about killing peasants and infidels.

Only about their peasants, because someone's other peasant was his good. So rules were very similiar to destroying a thing: payment.

Also true. I was thinking more during battle, not in a time of peace. It would be just fine for a knight to cut down a peasant warrior fleeing battle from behind.

[Bluenose]

Very true yarpen. I was thinking to use Knight as a status and Cavalier as a fighting style. I am looking for a term for a noble warrior kit not directly related to horse riding.

Really no rules about killing peasants and infidels.

Only about their peasants, because someone's other peasant was his good. So rules were very similiar to destroying a thing: payment.

Also true. I was thinking more during battle, not in a time of peace. It would be just fine for a knight to cut down a peasant warrior fleeing battle from behind.

Would Man-at-Arms work for you? It's an often used, late medieval term for heavily armoured warriors fighting mounted or on foot. It doesn't have the same implication about social status as knight/ritter/chevalier/gente d'armas carry, though ot's not something applied to common soldiers either. Armsman is sometimes used as an alternative.

[Chevalier]

I like it Bluenose.

[Miloch]

There is a "Noble Warrior" kit in the 2nd edition Complete Fighter's Handbook, a few pages after the Cavalier kit leahnkain and I quoted. I can't find a link to it, but it sounds like pretty much exactly what you are talking about.

And here's a time-waster for you...
The 2nd Edition AD&D Warrior Kit Test

Edit (my results):

The Outlaw
You scored 56% flamboyance, 22% honor, and 33% urbanity!
You're an outlaw, and you live by the sword, not by the laws of men. You've got a certain flair for drama and a dangerously sexy aura about you, but anybody who trusts in that rakish smile of yours is about to lose something -- their wealth, their virtue, or possibly their life.

Sounds like they got that one bang on target . Well, mostly anyhow...

Edited by Miloch, 27 December 2009 - 12:18 PM.

[Tieflingz]

I got the Samurai!

The Samurai
You scored 46% flamboyance, 55% honor, and 39% urbanity!
You are a noble warrior, and honor is your most prized possession. You may serve a lord, and your name may be known throughout the land, but fundamentally what you are is an expression of purity in ideals, and a way of life in accordance with specific and unwavering principles.

I just feel even more Asian now

Hmm, so Halberd would not be used on a horseback, and spear (Since BGII has no 'Lance' proficiency) would be counting as the lance in-game?

Yet something learned about the Knighthood of the medieval times

Cavalier is 騎兵 in Chinese from all those discussion I believe, Knight would be 騎士. Big difference, so from my understanding Cavalier is more of a Soldier and Knight is more of an Officer rank?

[Lollorian]

Ha Lookie what I got

The Cavalier

You scored 65% flamboyance, 56% honor, and 49% urbanity!
You are a noble warrior, protector of the weak and scourge of those who would do evil. Armed from head to toe, and astride your mighty steed, you know none can stand against you. But your courage in battle is matched only by your gentility toward the innocent under your protection.

Lovely, just lovely

And about chivalry, nowadays, chivalry almost = courtesy since mountable horses don't exist in BG, I guess, unmounted-protect-the-innocent-type-chivalric-armored-guy best describes the Cavalier

Cheers,
Lol

Edited by Lollorian, 27 December 2009 - 09:52 PM.

[yarpen]

There is a "Noble Warrior" kit in the 2nd edition Complete Fighter's Handbook, a few pages after the Cavalier kit leahnkain and I quoted. I can't find a link to it, but it sounds like pretty much exactly what you are talking about.

Yup, he gets more gold at start and have raised reaction bonus when talking to another nobles (and lowered when talking to non-nobles). PnP grants very interesting kits which are undoable in BG2 because of being combat-oriented game.

But, for paladins, there also exists a kit of Militarist, so a person who's true soldier of his faith. Still I think it doesn't fit to original Chevalier/Cavalier etc. This kit should get more courage-oriented abilities, and I'd love to see Rush ability here.

For bonus, here's Militarist from my old PoF Kitpack:

MILITARIST: The Militarist is a battlefield virtuoso. War is a sacred act, he believes, and a chance for spiritual redemption. By defeating enemies in combat, he pays tribute to his gods and secures his place in the afterlife.

Sphere access:
- None

Advantages:
- +1 to THACO and damage
- Can achieve mastery (3 points) in any weapon
- Once per day per 4 levels can use the 'Smite infidels' ability, which grants him in the next round +4 to THACO and damage bonus.

Disadvantages:
- Can't cast spells
- Can't turn undead

[Jarno Mikkola]

The Cavalier

Hmm, we must be very much alike. Mine. Thanks Miloch.

[leahnkain]

I thought I would get a better result...

The Swashbuckler

You scored 67% flamboyance, 64% honor, and 71% urbanity!
You are a swashbuckler, quick of wit and quicker of blade. A defender of the weak and a force for justice, you nevertheless enjoy the finer things in life -- a glass of wine, a gorgeous cloak, and the company of the opposite sex.

Anyway one option is we could try to put some of the old 2nd edition fighter kits into BG.

[Lollorian]

The Cavalier

Hmm, we must be very much alike. Mine. Thanks Miloch.

Hmmm, same, yet so different You're a red Imp, and I'm a yellow smiley Santa (think how they'd look mounted ... on a horse )

What say thee, Sir Imp? - Lol