53 replies to this topic

[Azazello]

I still vote respectful mention of this update on PPG. Preferably, with blessing from jcompton.

On to the feedback to kovarex...

{I haven't installed your update yet...}

-- I discovered that the mod package has files in its /Backup/ folder. Probably left over from your testing. Not really a problem, but if someone is doing incremental uninstalling, then the files in /Backup/ will get dumped into override folder, thus screwing up that person's uninstall. (Do I speak from experience?)
So, when next you update the package, best that /Backup/ is empty.

-- You didn't update the ReadMe, so we have no idea what was really changed. You mentioned "introduces new component modifying few other spells". Uh-oh. I hope these new changes are optional components.

-- Thank you for this update. I'm looking forward to the day when you (or other modder[s]) updates the spell-files using the patching method that is used in g3Fixpack. This mod will then probably be like 44Kb!

[kovarex]

Hello, thx for the feedback, I made new version update today.

I still vote respectful mention of this update on PPG. Preferably, with blessing from jcompton.

On to the feedback to kovarex...

{I haven't installed your update yet...}

-- I discovered that the mod package has files in its /Backup/ folder. Probably left over from your testing. Not really a problem, but if someone is doing incremental uninstalling, then the files in /Backup/ will get dumped into override folder, thus screwing up that person's uninstall. (Do I speak from experience?)
So, when next you update the package, best that /Backup/ is empty.

I made sure the backup folder doesn't contain my files.

-- You didn't update the ReadMe, so we have no idea what was really changed. You mentioned "introduces new component modifying few other spells". Uh-oh. I hope these new changes are optional components.

Hm, I believe the readme was updated, but it surely is in the version 10.
The readme contains information of all the spell changes.
Yes, the mod is divided in two optional components, as I'm sure not everyone will like 10 magic missiles at 29th level etc , although I think it is quite ok.

-- Thank you for this update. I'm looking forward to the day when you (or other modder[s]) updates the spell-files using the patching method that is used in g3Fixpack. This mod will then probably be like 44Kb!

Yes, editing spells using the script would be nice but
a) My knowledge of the tp2 script is very bad and I'm not sure If I want to invest the time to learn it (at least not at the moment, i'm in the middle of examination time on my collage and I have to learn few other programming languages ^^)
b) Some spells are modified by the "Saving throws penalty depending on character level component" from bg2 tweaks, even those spells that have no saving throws there, so I believe the manual edit of these spells is better.
c) I can guess the dynamical editing is in 99% cases better in the modding due to compatibility, but I believe that spells are something bit different.

PS: version 10 can be found at http://www.kovarex.c.../spell50-v10.7z
regards
kovarex

Edited by kovarex, 19 January 2008 - 09:35 AM.

[Rabain]

What the bigg said.

He should know, with his WeiDU updates and all.

As for moving it to a diffrent site, technically this is a ressurection of a mod, and much like the Mana-Based Spell System I uploaded, this site is easy for the aveage person to upload a mod.

So thank you for bringing this onward, kovarex.

Technically for a resurrection to take place the mod would have to be dead first. Spell50 is alive and kicking on a lot of peoples installs.

This is what I would technically call a cloning (with perhaps a smidge of GM thrown in to account for change).

[Ascension64]

What the bigg said.

He should know, with his WeiDU updates and all.

As for moving it to a diffrent site, technically this is a ressurection of a mod, and much like the Mana-Based Spell System I uploaded, this site is easy for the aveage person to upload a mod.

So thank you for bringing this onward, kovarex.

Technically for a resurrection to take place the mod would have to be dead first. Spell50 is alive and kicking on a lot of peoples installs.

This is what I would technically call a cloning (with perhaps a smidge of GM thrown in to account for change).

Semantically, perhaps. Otherwise, none of these mods (Planar Sphere, FRRoV, Ajoc's Minimod, Druidic Sorceror, etc. etc.) were really 'dead' because people still used them before they got 'resurrected'.

Edited by Ascension64, 22 January 2008 - 01:11 AM.

[Rabain]

Well the same rule doesn't apply to the other mods because while some people still had them from years ago many (all?) were not publicly available in a well known and easily available download site. Also some of these mods were not installed via weidu...hence the resurrection in a new form.

weidu.org has been there a long time and still hosts spell50, it's not like it disappeared and no one could get spell50.

This is not a case of semantics. I'm not saying I don't appreciate the work kovarex has done improving and updating the mod but the release and hosting could have been handled better i.e. in conjunction with jcompton or weimer's approval.

Now we have two sites hosting the same mod but different versions....sub-optimal, as someone once said.

[bigmoshi]

I think kovarex did email weimer as he mentioned in the earlier parts of the thread. But perhaps as suggested by CamDawg (see here), maybe a quick five-min forwarding of that email to jcompton would suffice. Then, at least this mod update can be distributed more quickly than being stuck here in some isolated corner, and there will be a new official for the mod.

[Azazello]

kovarex has been advised several times to send that email. But since he's gotten on JC's bad side, I think he might be worried that the request will be rejected. Perhaps a detente or an accord is in order.

[Jarno Mikkola]

How should I say this, hhmm.

If Jcompton and Kovarex can't come to a mutually agreeable solution, then there is only one way this can go, provided that Kovarex is still willing to continue the evolution of this mod. That is renaming it!

Of course this will be only possible by renaming the current/next version and deleting all other's that are between then and tomorrow(8-10v+) as if they weren't even here.
This also makes Kovarex more responsible of all the bugs in the renamed mod! And might give him a deserved status as a bad moder, but that's only if he deserves it!!!! and something goes wrong...
Remember Kovarex, to give all the deserved credits that do, and you can get help more easily... eventually, that is.

But as I haven't even played either version of the mod...

[cmorgan]

dudes, dudettes, we all need to work together on this stuff and keep to the agreements and understandings the IE Community has about authorship and distribution - fixing stuff and updating is really welcome, but we have it much better than many newer modding communities because there are agreements in place that keep most folks working together well and for the common good.

I am just noting here that players will not be happy about the state of things when modders start getting ticked off about their work being migrated from site to site without their permission, or recoded and ghosted out as a copy - how are they supposed to troubleshoot? How is anyone supposed to be able to help out when they can't tell if it is Spell50 v2 from SHS, or Spell50 v6 from WeiDU.org, or Spell50 v 1.7 from an independent site/distribution? How are we going to assist the Mega player, or even the darned vanilla BG2 player?

I won't even go into the whole authorship rights thing, though I strongly suspect that I am not the only one right now eyeing the whole thing and saying "hey - y'know, I always wanted the Morrowind storyline to have a new branch. Why don't I toddle on over there." And I am a dude who gladly gives up ownership rights and spends most of his time working on *other author's projects* to assit them in finishing or maintaining their work. If *I* am getting uncomfortable, well, I suspect most other modder types are saying very foul words and making decisions to *not* assist...

I have suggested several times in several places that the way to accomplish this is to offer fixes directly on site forums of the original mods freely and without reservation to the authors. If you don't get a response in a few months, ask around... The Vault, and several other mods, have been "resurrected" when the owners have not responded within a year or two. There is a section here at SHS that specializes in this, and I just did it myself, by assisting Ascension64 with making the BGT version of Mulgore and Xavia (hmm - gotta go finish that) into a BGT/Tutu installer, so that it is modernized; the older Tutu version was copying over existsing areas and scripts instead of patching. Here, the author *specifically asked folks to keep working on the mod*. I just troubleshot and updated a few lines in Sirine's Call on Tutu at PPG, and offered it freely, requesting update - the response was positive and the site is given the opportunity to protect the original author's wishes while updating the mod.

The work of updating is appreciated by players and modders alike, because it makes games work.
The energy, and the compliment that people want the mods to work because they *like playing them* is definitely appreciated and understood.
This particular way of doing it is definitely *not* a positive for the community.

Edited by cmorgan, 22 January 2008 - 11:55 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

- how are they supposed to troubleshoot?

This is the reason I said a renaming is good. Let's say Kovarex desides to give this name: Koverax Magic Adaption Mod. KMAM for short. The setup can be ~SETUP-KMAM.TP2~ and so forth in the WeiDU.log .

[jcompton]

First off, just to put to rest any worries about Wes, I can assure you that he basically doesn't care. He's never given any explicit instructions to me about weidu.org and at best expresses benign amusement when I update him about what's going on, so I simply try to run the site with as much Weimer-esque equanimity as possible, balanced against "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

That said, no, it's not ideal for players to have two different versions of the same mod running around. And no, Kovarex has not exactly burst onto the scene winning his way onto my Christmas list.

That said, obviously if there's an update to Spell-50, it's ideal to put it in the place where existing Spell-50 users are going to see it, on weidu.org. I'm willing to do that. Given that I don't have time to audit the mod and ensure that it's actually a reasonably trouble-free upgrade, and that he has given me no reason whatsoever to place any trust in him, it would be nice if first someone could come along and say, "yes, this actually works, it's safe to offer it to all those nice unsuspecting people who visit weidu.org." I see a lot of talk about the implications here but if there's a post saying "gosh, this works wonderfully!" then I've missed it.

As for renaming the mod, that would be a fallback option, I suppose, if nobody's willing to vouch for this upgrade, although then what do you propose to do about installs which already have the ancient Spell-50? Refuse to install? Have the new TP2 force-uninstall old Spell-50? And then what happens if somebody else comes along and does their own update of Spell-50 which then becomes official? (Seems unlikely given the gap between updates, but stranger things have happened.)

[Ascension64]

That said, obviously if there's an update to Spell-50, it's ideal to put it in the place where existing Spell-50 users are going to see it, on weidu.org. I'm willing to do that. Given that I don't have time to audit the mod and ensure that it's actually a reasonably trouble-free upgrade, and that he has given me no reason whatsoever to place any trust in him, it would be nice if first someone could come along and say, "yes, this actually works, it's safe to offer it to all those nice unsuspecting people who visit weidu.org." I see a lot of talk about the implications here but if there's a post saying "gosh, this works wonderfully!" then I've missed it.

If kovarex wishes it, how about hosting the 'official' and 'unofficial' versions (for sake of comparison) just like it was with WeiDU for a stage?

As for renaming the mod, that would be a fallback option, I suppose, if nobody's willing to vouch for this upgrade, although then what do you propose to do about installs which already have the ancient Spell-50? Refuse to install? Have the new TP2 force-uninstall old Spell-50? And then what happens if somebody else comes along and does their own update of Spell-50 which then becomes official? (Seems unlikely given the gap between updates, but stranger things have happened.)

Renaming isn't particularly ideal. But the easiest way to tackle compatibility would be to explicitly mention that A doesn't work with B. It will be obvious enough that someone has infringed if they post a WeiDU.log with both mods installed. No forced checks or executive action required.

[Sellous]

Hey, It's possible to merge spell50 with mana-spell system (from dragonlancetc, and now available to BG2) and create an ?Arcane age? mod? It?d be sssooo cooolll.

[kovarex]

First off, just to put to rest any worries about Wes, I can assure you that he basically doesn't care. He's never given any explicit instructions to me about weidu.org and at best expresses benign amusement when I update him about what's going on, so I simply try to run the site with as much Weimer-esque equanimity as possible, balanced against "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

That said, no, it's not ideal for players to have two different versions of the same mod running around. And no, Kovarex has not exactly burst onto the scene winning his way onto my Christmas list.

That said, obviously if there's an update to Spell-50, it's ideal to put it in the place where existing Spell-50 users are going to see it, on weidu.org. I'm willing to do that. Given that I don't have time to audit the mod and ensure that it's actually a reasonably trouble-free upgrade, and that he has given me no reason whatsoever to place any trust in him, it would be nice if first someone could come along and say, "yes, this actually works, it's safe to offer it to all those nice unsuspecting people who visit weidu.org." I see a lot of talk about the implications here but if there's a post saying "gosh, this works wonderfully!" then I've missed it.

As for renaming the mod, that would be a fallback option, I suppose, if nobody's willing to vouch for this upgrade, although then what do you propose to do about installs which already have the ancient Spell-50? Refuse to install? Have the new TP2 force-uninstall old Spell-50? And then what happens if somebody else comes along and does their own update of Spell-50 which then becomes official? (Seems unlikely given the gap between updates, but stranger things have happened.)

Hello, I came hare after some longer pause.

I played my own game with the upgrade of the mod, and it worked pretty ok, if I got it right, you are ok if I start to care about this mod?

I'm willing to take responsibility for any problems with this little mod if that is the issue, in other terms, troubleshooting, and further developing, I also don't mind if you want to put the new version on any site you want.

Edited by kovarex, 27 September 2008 - 11:27 AM.

[Duality]

I doubt that JC is checking this forum, so your best bet is to email him (or something). If you want, post a link to your upgrade version in your next post so other people can test it.

[jcompton]

I have eyes everywhere.

If you have an update to the mod and can give me a solid assurance that it works, I'll put it up.

[Duality]

kovarex, why don't you post your version of the mod here so people can test it. Since it's so hard to find all the bugs yourself, it can't hurt to have other people take a look at it. Start a new thread and post the link there.

On an unrelated note, is there any information on TBH?

Edited by Duality, 03 October 2008 - 08:10 AM.

[Miloch]

If you have an update to the mod and can give me a solid assurance that it works, I'll put it up.

I don't know what all the hoo-ha was about here, but can someone actually vouch for this so it can be put in a more permanent download location? Someone must be able to since the BWP is linking to it, but the link in the initial post seems to be valid only once in a while.

If the main concern so far is "it doesn't patch - it overwrites" well, that sucks, but I'm pretty sure the original does the same given its age.

[Hoppy]

There are problems or were with this being installed and then BP and/or SCS2 later in installation. Crash to desktops when a trap is triggered and the spell begins. Restoring backups in BP folder or SCS2 fixed the crashes. Not every spell was screwed so I can't give a solid example. The crashes were consistent if the spell was hosed.

Also, the spells in question did not give errors in NI or DLTCEP either. I am not sure if things are updated better with newer BP and SCS2 but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Miloch]

There are problems or were with this being installed and then BP and/or SCS2 later in installation. Crash to desktops when a trap is triggered and the spell begins. Restoring backups in BP folder or SCS2 fixed the crashes. Not every spell was screwed so I can't give a solid example. The crashes were consistent if the spell was hosed.

Is it something specific to the version in this thread that works in the Weimer version? If so, then I guess that's reason enough to use the older weidu.org version instead of this.