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Coran's proficiencies and hit points


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#1 Kastagir

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 05:46 PM

I just picked up Coran and noticed some things that were out of place.

In BG1, Coran has proficiencies in Large Swords and Bows. In BGT 1.06, he has proficiencies in Short Bow and Short Sword. I'm not sure how "Large Sword" got translated to Short Sword - at the very least it should be Long Sword proficiency, as he is an elf. I would also expect him to have Long Bow proficiency instead of Short Bow, but if you're taking his thiefly nature into consideration, I could understand that choice. The sword proficiencies seem wrong, however.

Additionally, I picked him up at level 3/3. With his CON of 12, the maximum hit points he can have at that level is 24, yet he has 27 hit points. Now I understand he breaks the rules in several areas, and I almost remember his hit points being an example of this, but I wanted to point it out just the same.

#2 Miloch

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 10:00 PM

Both BGT and Tutu did a poor job of translating BG1 proficiencies to the BG2 format, and apparently in two different directions (Tutu I think gives him a two-handed sword he's barely strong enough to wield). You can correct this with Level 1 NPCs until either another mod or the core converter corrects it.

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#3 Ascension64

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 12:20 AM

Both BGT and Tutu did a poor job of translating BG1 proficiencies to the BG2 format, and apparently in two different directions (Tutu I think gives him a two-handed sword he's barely strong enough to wield). You can correct this with Level 1 NPCs until either another mod or the core converter corrects it.

Where is a list of the most appropriate converted proficiencies for all joinable NPCs at all available levels upon picking them up?

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#4 Miloch

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 01:49 AM

Where is a list of the most appropriate converted proficiencies for all joinable NPCs at all available levels upon picking them up?

The most appropriate list would be looking at the proficiencies they had in BG1 (maybe using Dudley's list as a reference) and then looking at the actual weapons they had and giving them those proficiencies, rather than using some sort of automated routine (which seems to be what Tutu did, if not BGT).

Some allowances have to be made for engine differences - for example, weapon styles were not available in BG1, and rangers get 2 points in two-weapon style for free in the BG2 engine (even though it doesn't do Kivan much good, starting with a spear, but eventually he'd probably put his points in long sword, being an elf). Also, some bugs should be fixed, like Khalid getting a two-handed sword at level 6 and long sword at every other level (he gets dual bastard swords in Tutu for some odd reason - he's a half-elf, not an ambidextrous Conan). Branwen and Yeslick would be toss-ups since they get no starting equipment (I'd probably give them morning star and hammers, respectively).

Finally, at least 2 NPCs (Quayle and Tiax) cannot use their BG1 weapons due to the enforcement of STR requirements in the BG2 engine which BG1 did not enforce. I've presented various means of addressing that in Gnomes v2, but the best way for core is probably just to give them the closest weapons they can use, even though that's not that great of a solution. I'd almost view it as a bug overlooked in BG1 and boost their STRs to let them use their BG1 weapons. It's not like they'd have godlike stats after that - they both have extremely poor average stats near the bottom of the list, as Ergopad's analysis shows.

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#5 Ascension64

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 02:33 AM

The most appropriate list would be looking at the proficiencies they had in BG1 (maybe using Dudley's list as a reference) and then looking at the actual weapons they had and giving them those proficiencies, rather than using some sort of automated routine (which seems to be what Tutu did, if not BGT).

Some allowances have to be made for engine differences - for example, weapon styles were not available in BG1, and rangers get 2 points in two-weapon style for free in the BG2 engine (even though it doesn't do Kivan much good, starting with a spear, but eventually he'd probably put his points in long sword, being an elf). Also, some bugs should be fixed, like Khalid getting a two-handed sword at level 6 and long sword at every other level (he gets dual bastard swords in Tutu for some odd reason - he's a half-elf, not an ambidextrous Conan). Branwen and Yeslick would be toss-ups since they get no starting equipment (I'd probably give them morning star and hammers, respectively).

Finally, at least 2 NPCs (Quayle and Tiax) cannot use their BG1 weapons due to the enforcement of STR requirements in the BG2 engine which BG1 did not enforce. I've presented various means of addressing that in Gnomes v2, but the best way for core is probably just to give them the closest weapons they can use, even though that's not that great of a solution. I'd almost view it as a bug overlooked in BG1 and boost their STRs to let them use their BG1 weapons. It's not like they'd have godlike stats after that - they both have extremely poor average stats near the bottom of the list, as Ergopad's analysis shows.


I did a review of starting weapons yesterday, and it looks like Bardez and co changed them quite severely. I'm in the process of reverting them back to the BG1 starting weapons. There have been a few cases where the starting weapons by level are impractical (as you mentioned, Khalid going from a Long Sword -> Two Handed Sword, and others [Coran and Kivan I think] going from Short Bow -> Long Bow, allowable under BG1 proficiency rules, but inconsistent under BG2 proficiency rules. I kept the seemingly most 'consistent' one in those cases).

Anyway, if there isn't any true consensus on anything, I'll make the corrections to the starting weapons and proficiencies where necessary, and then post them here for review when finished.

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#6 Miloch

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 02:51 AM

others [Coran and Kivan I think] going from Short Bow -> Long Bow, allowable under BG1 proficiency rules, but inconsistent under BG2 proficiency rules.

It looks like Coran gets a long bow no matter what, but Kivan starts out with short bow and switches to long bow. Aside from being inconsistent, this makes no sense to me. They're both elves, and long bows would be the preferred launcher. And why would Kivan use a short bow with a 18/12 STR when Coran with 14 STR uses a long bow? I'd give them both long bows. This is one inconsistency Dudley didn't fix, but he did fix other ones highlighted in red on his lists. For example, this one:

Additionally, I picked him up at level 3/3. With his CON of 12, the maximum hit points he can have at that level is 24, yet he has 27 hit points. Now I understand he breaks the rules in several areas, and I almost remember his hit points being an example of this, but I wanted to point it out just the same.

Technically, Coran can't have more than 2 stars in bows nor can he have more than 19 DEX, but I think he was a PnP character and supposed to be an exceptional archer, so I'm willing to overlook that.

Also, I'd change one more thing... due to the broad groups in the BG1 proficiency system (and lack of weapon styles) the NPCs often got a third (or fourth) proficiency that didn't make sense. Like Minsc getting blunt weapons or Khalid getting axes. I'd change these to the appropriate weapon styles (two-handed and sword-and-shield in this case).

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#7 cmorgan

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 05:53 AM

Echon over at PPG and Miloch (everywhere :) ) are really good on this kind of stuff. From what I hazily remember reading in back threads, there were just as many (and just as haphazard) oddities on Tutu - one of the big reasons to really want the Level 1 NPCs mod develped. Too many hassles firing up SK to give Jaheira a quarterstaff to match her portrait, etc.

There is one more thing to take into consideration - if BG2 tweaks runs on a BGT install, the bigg has a component that allows BG proficiencies. It might be worth taking into account tghat igi's Leran through Use, Ashes of Embers, etc. - heck, lots of mods fiddle with proficiencies (which is a very long-winded way of saying there are as many ideas about this as there are modders, so basically any approach you deem logical should work fine. You are only setting the baseline to what makes sense from a straight BG>BG2 engine conversion sense, and anyone who complains has multiple ways of resetting the stats and proficiencies wherever they want!)

#8 Kastagir

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 07:18 AM

I really only meant to draw attention to Coran's BGT proficiencies in Short Sword (translated from Large Swords in BG1 where he had a longsword). Though I did not intent this to become a discussion on proficiencies translation for BGT, it's not really a bad thing. I wouldn't necessarily get carried away and change things like Minsc's blunt weapons (Mace in BGT) points and things like that, only the more glaring inconsistencies.

Oh yeah...shouldn't Ogre Mages drop katanas instead of bastard swords? Their sprite clearly wields a katana. Do Ogre Mages appear in BG2, and if so, what weapon type do they drop?

#9 Icendoan

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 07:49 AM

They appear in BG2 and they drop Bastard Swords. You can fight one within minutes of starting SoA

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#10 Miloch

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 06:48 PM

I wouldn't necessarily get carried away and change things like Minsc's blunt weapons (Mace in BGT) points and things like that, only the more glaring inconsistencies.

Well like I said, we should make some allowances for engine differences. The weapon styles didn't exist in BG1, so I think it looks a bit inconsistent in BGT if the BG2 NPCs have them but none of the BG1 ones do. And if Minsc is supposed to get a blunt weapon, we're not sure what that's supposed to be, since he doesn't have one in BG1. Yes, I suppose the idea of Minsc dual-wielding maces is pretty funny, but in a funny=ridiculous sort of way, and I don't think the BG1 designers intended that (there wasn't dual wielding in BG1 anyhow).

Oh yeah...shouldn't Ogre Mages drop katanas instead of bastard swords? Their sprite clearly wields a katana. Do Ogre Mages appear in BG2, and if so, what weapon type do they drop?

Yes, probably (one of the few creatures in western Faerun who should have katanas). I think this is more mod than core territory though, and I was going to fix it (for BG1 anyway) in the next Lost Items. In fact, I was toying with the possibility of giving some of them naginatas per PnP but as that would require modding the avatars, that bit probably won't happen.

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#11 Ascension64

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 01:39 AM

I've attached what an analysis of the profs and what things look like at the moment.
What about letting the player choose all the non-obvious ones? A bit of coding required, but the good thing about it would be that it doesn't make any assumptions. It might be a little inconvenient to the player having the extra dialogue, though.

Also, have the BG1Fixpack scrutinized the THAC0 and the HP for all the joinable NPCs?
The Coran HP problem originally mentioned exists in BG1. Are there any other joinable NPCs with problems with too many/few HP? Are all the THAC0s correct for level and class?

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#12 Miloch

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 07:36 AM

I've attached what an analysis of the profs and what things look like at the moment.

I don't see too many problems offhand; I'll go through it in more detail later though. Branwen should probably have hammer and sling, not morning star. I was wrong about that, since she would've had spiked in BG1 for that and she doesn't.

What about letting the player choose all the non-obvious ones? A bit of coding required, but the good thing about it would be that it doesn't make any assumptions.

It's a possibility, but maybe for BGT Tweaks or something instead of core. Indeed, I was going to put such a component in Mix-Mod (and will be glad to steal your code if it can be applied to Tutu/BG1 unless you're hardcoding everything).

Also, have the BG1Fixpack scrutinized the THAC0 and the HP for all the joinable NPCs? The Coran HP problem originally mentioned exists in BG1. Are there any other joinable NPCs with problems with too many/few HP? Are all the THAC0s correct for level and class?

No we haven't looked at NPCs yet that I know of, and yes there are a bunch of issues. Dudley summarised some, but I don't know if he caught them all. Ergopad's mod (linked above) fixes some of the issues (not with proficiencies though).

Edit: Oh, another thing especially for BGT is consistency between the BG1>BG2 NPC proficiencies for those who exist in both (Edwin, Jaheira, Imoen, Minsc, Viconia). It looks like you may already have looked at this though.

Edited by Miloch, 16 August 2008 - 07:38 AM.

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#13 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 08:14 AM

What about letting the player choose all the non-obvious ones? A bit of coding required, but the good thing about it would be that it doesn't make any assumptions.

It's a possibility, but maybe for BGT Tweaks or something instead of core. Indeed, I was going to put such a component in Mix-Mod (and will be glad to steal your code if it can be applied to Tutu/BG1 unless you're hardcoding everything).

I wouldn't put such a component to the main pack of BGT, and nor even to the BGT Tweaks, because the L1NPCs has all this covered already...

Now, what might help, is to make the L1NPCs compatible with the BG1 and TotSC... or making a mod like that for BGI and TotSC, which then could be used in L1NPC mod.

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#14 Miloch

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 07:05 PM

I wouldn't put such a component to the main pack of BGT, and nor even to the BGT Tweaks, because the L1NPCs has all this covered already...

No, it doesn't. It does not have any option to restore correct proficiencies per BG1. To do so, you'd have to answer roughly four dozen questions or more (multiply the number of NPCs by the number of proficiencies, and it probably would be more) and, moreover, you'd have to know the answers to all those questions, which would involve doing a spreadsheet like Ascension64's.

Now, what might help, is to make the L1NPCs compatible with the BG1 and TotSC... or making a mod like that for BGI and TotSC, which then could be used in L1NPC mod.

Why? The proficiencies are "correct" in BG1 (apart from the inconsistencies Dudley noted, which you can already install). They are not correct in BGT or Tutu - this is the problem.

Edited by Miloch, 16 August 2008 - 07:07 PM.

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#15 Miloch

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 08:07 AM

Ok, I made some slight changes to your spreadsheet. Most are fairly minor, and I've tried to preserve the BG1 proficiencies where practical. In some cases, I made changes for BG2 consistency, but for the most part these didn't conflict with the original proficiencies to any great extent.

Summary of some changes:
- Gave Ajantis swordandshield instead of mace for 3rd proficiency. The BG1 proficiencies are too much a mess to figure out "consistency" here, and he does have a shield but never a mace.
- Already mentioned Branwen above; she gets swordandshield as her 3rd proficiency (overlooked in BG1)
- Coran gets 5 stars whether he joins at level 3 or 5 as a fighter. I didn't nerf the 3 points in longbow like I said - if it bothers someone, they can use a mod to change it.
- Edwin's second proficiency changed from dart to (throwing) dagger for BG2 consistency
- Jaheira gets scimitar instead of spear for 3rd proficiency (consistent with both BG1 and BG2)
- Montaron gets sling instead of throwing axe for 2nd proficiency (consistent with BG1; also halflings should prefer slings as they get a +1 bonus with them)
- Safana gets crossbow instead of shortbow (she has "missile" in BG1).
- As noted, Quayle's STR will need to be boosted 5 points to let him use his starting flail. An alternative would be to boost it 3 points and give him a morning star instead (same proficiency). I don't have strong feelings either way, but I'm leaning toward flail as that's what he had in BG1, which did not enforce the STR requirement.
- Tiax gets swordandshield as 3rd proficiency instead of club. He should have a "spiked" proficiency for BG1 consistency, but there's none he could use without raising his STR at least to 11. You'll have to boost his STR to 10 though for mace, as noted (otherwise no point in giving him that either).
- Viconia gets swordandshield instead of hammer for 3rd proficiency, both for BG2 consistency, and because she has a shield and no hammer.
- Xzar gets darts instead of quarterstaff as 2nd proficiency. He had "missile" in BG1 and could arguably get sling instead, but I see him more as a dart user than a slinger.
- Minor changes to other NPCs, either for consistency or to correct a bug (wrong # of proficiencies). These are noted in red where I removed or lowered something, in blue where I added or raised something.
Attached File  Profs2.xls   28K   219 downloads

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#16 Ascension64

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 05:20 AM

Thanks. I will have a close look at your revised table soon.

I just checked the THAC0 relative to BG1 THAC0 (which follows 2ed exactly). Only CORAN5.CRE is out of line. THAC0 should be 16, not 17 (consistent with Fighter Level 5).

Update: HP check results

BRANWEN.CRE (Cleric L2, CON 15) - HP = 2d6 + 2, max = 14 (BG1 HP = 15)
CORAN.CRE (Fighter Thief L3/3, CON 12) - HP = (3d10+3d6)/2, max = 24 (BG1HP = 27)
EDWIN4.CRE (Mage L4, CON 16) - HP = 4d4 + 8, min = 12 (BG1HP = 9)
EDWIN6.CRE (Mage L6, CON 16) - HP = 6d4 + 12, min = 18 (BG1HP = 15)
MONTAR2.CRE (Fighter Thief L1/2, CON 15) - HP = (1d10+1d6)/2 + 1d6/2 + 1 + 0.5, max = 12 [rounded down] (BG1HP = 15)

In all the following cases, if we assume that these NPCs are supposed to have maximum HP at level 1, it appears that the CON bonus was left off. Should these L1 NPCs have maximum HP?

DYNAHE.CRE (Mage L1, CON 16) - HP = 1d4 + 2, max = 6 (BG1HP = 4)
EDWIN.CRE (Mage L1, CON 16) - HP = 1d4 + 2, max = 6 (BG1HP = 4)
IMOEN1.CRE (Thief L1, CON 16) - HP = 1d6 + 2, max = 8 (BG1HP = 6)
JAHEIR.CRE (Fighter Druid L1/1, CON 17) - HP = (1d10+1d8)/2 + 3, max = 12 (BG1HP = 9)
KAGAIN.CRE (Fighter L1, CON 20) - HP = 1d10 + 5 [roll of 1 counted as 2], max = 15 (BG1HP = 10)
KHALID.CRE (Fighter L1, CON 17) - HP = 1d10 + 3, max = 13 (BG1HP = 10)
MINSC.CRE (Ranger L1, CON 15) - HP = 1d10 + 1, max = 11 (BG1HP = 10)
MONTAR.CRE (Fighter Thief L1/1, CON 15) - HP = (1d10+1d6)/2 + 1, max = 9 (BG1HP = 8 )

I'd like someone to double check these, in case I got the calculations incorrect.

Edited by Ascension64, 19 August 2008 - 06:15 AM.

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#17 Kastagir

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 06:55 AM

Thanks. I will have a close look at your revised table soon.

I just checked the THAC0 relative to BG1 THAC0 (which follows 2ed exactly). Only CORAN5.CRE is out of line. THAC0 should be 16, not 17 (consistent with Fighter Level 5).

Update: HP check results

BRANWEN.CRE (Cleric L2, CON 15) - HP = 2d6 + 2, max = 14 (BG1 HP = 15)
CORAN.CRE (Fighter Thief L3/3, CON 12) - HP = (3d10+3d6)/2, max = 24 (BG1HP = 27)
EDWIN4.CRE (Mage L4, CON 16) - HP = 4d4 + 8, min = 12 (BG1HP = 9)
EDWIN6.CRE (Mage L6, CON 16) - HP = 6d4 + 12, min = 18 (BG1HP = 15)
MONTAR2.CRE (Fighter Thief L1/2, CON 15) - HP = (1d10+1d6)/2 + 1d6/2 + 1 + 0.5, max = 12 [rounded down] (BG1HP = 15)

In all the following cases, if we assume that these NPCs are supposed to have maximum HP at level 1, it appears that the CON bonus was left off. Should these L1 NPCs have maximum HP?

DYNAHE.CRE (Mage L1, CON 16) - HP = 1d4 + 2, max = 6 (BG1HP = 4)
EDWIN.CRE (Mage L1, CON 16) - HP = 1d4 + 2, max = 6 (BG1HP = 4)
IMOEN1.CRE (Thief L1, CON 16) - HP = 1d6 + 2, max = 8 (BG1HP = 6)
JAHEIR.CRE (Fighter Druid L1/1, CON 17) - HP = (1d10+1d8)/2 + 3, max = 12 (BG1HP = 9)
KAGAIN.CRE (Fighter L1, CON 20) - HP = 1d10 + 5 [roll of 1 counted as 2], max = 15 (BG1HP = 10)
KHALID.CRE (Fighter L1, CON 17) - HP = 1d10 + 3, max = 13 (BG1HP = 10)
MINSC.CRE (Ranger L1, CON 15) - HP = 1d10 + 1, max = 11 (BG1HP = 10)
MONTAR.CRE (Fighter Thief L1/1, CON 15) - HP = (1d10+1d6)/2 + 1, max = 9 (BG1HP = 8 )

I'd like someone to double check these, in case I got the calculations incorrect.

Clerics have d8 hit points per level, not d6, so Branwen would have a maximum hp of 18 at level 2 (2d8 +2 for con). I don't know where the 15 comes from; every time I meet her at level 2 she has 17 hit points, which is one point below the maximum for that level. Same for Viconia (1 point below maximum at level 2) or just about any NPC you meet at level 2 (also confirmed for Dynaheir). All NPCs do have max hit points if you meet them at level 1, but some NPCs seem to have a minimum level at which you can meet them (Viconia and Branwen, for example).

I don't know where you got these hp values, but in-game, if you meet an NPC at level 1, they have maximum hp (including any CON bonus). At level 2 they seem to be one point below max. I suspect these hp values you are listing are "base hp" values that don't include adjustments for CON. That would bring them in line with what they are in-game. In the Branwen example, since she has a 15 CON, her base hp of 15 would be correct, as she has 17 hp in-game when you meet her at level 2. In this case, no adjustment would seem to be necessary.

Edited by Kastagir, 19 August 2008 - 06:58 AM.


#18 Miloch

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 10:23 AM

I suspect these hp values you are listing are "base hp" values that don't include adjustments for CON.

Yes, the base values in the CRE files do not include CON bonuses, which the engine handles dynamically.

Edit: Saving throws are probably completely hosed, which Dudley and Ergopad fix. For one thing, most of the racial bonuses (dwarf, gnome, halfling) are not applied correctly for the BG1 NPCs. The engine will calculate the correct values on levelling though, for what that's worth.

Edited by Miloch, 19 August 2008 - 10:25 AM.

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#19 Ascension64

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 03:55 AM

OK, had another look at the HPs, comparing base HPs only (engine seems to do fine with calculating CON bonuses, from what empirical observation I gathered).

The base HP discrepancies are below, and again I need some double-checking. The engine does seem to perform calculations for multi-class characters correctly on level up, so it doesn't seem to be a problem there. Hence, I'ved concluded tha the base HPs have been hard-coded incorrectly.

CORAN.CRE (F/T 3/3) - HP = (3d10+3d6)/2, max = 24 (BG1HP = 27)
MONTAR2.CRE (F/T 1/2) - HP = (1d10+1d6)/2 + 1d6/2, max = 11 (BG1HP = 15)
MONTAR4.CRE (F/T 3/4) - HP = (3d10+3d6)/2 + 1d6/2, max = 27 (BG1HP = 30)
MONTAR6.CRE (F/T 5/6) - HP = (5d10+5d6)/2 + 1d6/2, max = 43 (BG1HP = 45)
TIAX.CRE (C/T 2/2) - HP = (2d8+2d6)/2, max = 14 (BG1HP = 17)
YESLIC.CRE (F/C 2/3) - HP = (2d10+2d8)/2 + 1d8/2, max = 22 (BG1HP = 26)
YESLIC5.CRE (F/C 4/5) - HP = (4d10+4d8)/2 + 1d8/2, max = 40 (BG1HP = 43)

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#20 Miloch

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 04:06 AM

The base HP discrepancies are below, and again I need some double-checking.

I ran it through Excel - seems to be accurate.

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