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[DONE] [GRAPHICS] Portrait edit - Khalid (Khalid mod for BGII)


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#1 Zireael

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 03:45 AM

1. I need a portrait edit
2. It's for Khalid (duh...) so: male half-elf, aged around 30, Neutral Good
3. & 4. Dark skin, dark eyes, red hair, orangey clothing (just like it's in the original portrait)
5. Remove the helmet he has on in the original portrait if possible.
6. Original background
7. Original expression
8. None (the original reference proved out to be a source of many problems)
9. Post here please
10. No deadline
11. Baldur's Gate II Khalid mod
12. Two versions, if possible: one with the helmet removed altogether and the other one with just a few stray locks peeking out from underneath the helmet.
If I decide to include Plasmocat's alternate portrait, I'd like a similar edit to be done with his portrait.

Thanks in advance,
Zireael

Edited by Zireael, 19 March 2011 - 10:45 AM.


#2 Miloch

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 07:32 AM

Here are three edits. The first has hair colour close to your target portrait. The second with hair a few shades darker and the third with the helm.

I don't know if red hair makes sense for Khalid. At least not "flaming" ginger hair anyway. He's like half Calishite, isn't he (with an "Arabic" name to boot), so I always pictured him with dark hair and skin. In fact, his skin could probably stand to be a shade or two darker. His BG1 avatar colours are wrong in my opinion, as they are on a lot of avatars. But it's your mod I guess. I'll attach the bitmaps of whichever versions you want (if any).

Edit: portrait edits withdrawn due to lack of talent.

Edited by Miloch, 19 March 2011 - 02:55 AM.

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#3 Zireael

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 10:07 AM

Thank you so very much!
I personally think the one with the helmet looks the coolest. Other people are welcome to comment on it too, in fact, I'll invite them to do so in my Khalid thread in a moment.

If you think the skin could be darker - try it and post the results! I'll ask my testers to say which portrait they like the best, if you don't mind, before choosing the portrait I'll use for the mod.

#4 Zireael

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 09:02 AM

Okay, I'm a loser when it comes to rating graphics of any kind... and my testers can't seem to arrive at the decision.
Thus, I'm asking somebody else to try his or her hand at the request too.
No offense, Miloch, personally I think the portraits are good but apparently my testers have a different idea.

#5 Miloch

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 09:30 AM

You can offer as many portrait choices as you want with your mod using SUBCOMPONENTs. In fact a lot of NPC mods do this.

If you're looking for a different sort of portrait, maybe you need to explain your requirements better. The above request indicates you want Khalid's original portrait with no other changes than red hair (with and without the helm) from a photo you provided of someone who's obviously of Irish or Scandinavian descent. For reasons I described, that doesn't really suit Khalid (to be blunt, it looks like putting an Irishman's wig on an Arab). If you (or someone) wants it tweaked, that's one thing, but if you're looking for something else entirely, you'll need to specify that more clearly.

Edit: for reference, the hair you posted looks like the clip below, for those who are apparently commenting without looking at the source you provided. [I'm talking about the likes of Lava Del'Vortel, who apparently attributes the "nasty" hairstyle to my (lack of) skill (which is only partly responsible :P)]:
hairrd1.jpg
So yeah, it does look "nasty" and "spaghetti-like" but that's the source you wanted to match. Maybe you need to reconsider your choice of hairstyle emulation :D. Personally, I don't think there's much wrong with the original photo either. If you do want an alternative portrait, maybe consider a different portrait entirely, not some Photo-chop of the original.

Edited by Miloch, 18 March 2011 - 10:39 AM.

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#6 Lava Del'Vortel

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 11:13 AM

Ekhem? Spoke of me?

I just think that in your version hair got somehow "pixelized", Miloch, and leaving it that way wasn't a good idea. To be honest I don't know why you tried to change something about the colour. Here's the image of hair I found.
Posted Image
So yes, I'm actually checking the source before making any comments, Miloch.
Personally I think that making something of this hair is a loooooooot of work. Most people would have problem with it.

What's more I think original Khalid is fine and noone will be really bothered with the helmet... it's just original portrait and that's all...

#7 Zireael

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 12:53 AM

Ekhem? Spoke of me?

I just think that in your version hair got somehow "pixelized", Miloch, and leaving it that way wasn't a good idea. To be honest I don't know why you tried to change something about the colour. Here's the image of hair I found.
Posted Image
So yes, I'm actually checking the source before making any comments, Miloch.
Personally I think that making something of this hair is a loooooooot of work. Most people would have problem with it.

What's more I think original Khalid is fine and noone will be really bothered with the helmet... it's just original portrait and that's all...


As Lava pointed out on Children of Bhaal forums, it's hard to find good references for male redheads. So I'm going to drop the stupid reference from the first post...
-------------
Kirara and Lava have contributed their own visions on Children of Bhaal and I think I'll just give a few alternates in my mod.
Zi
P.S. Anyone else who wants to try is welcome to do so! (without the annoying reference)

#8 Miloch

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 03:00 AM

Spoke of me?

Yes, but at least I did so in a forum to which I knew you could (and would) read and respond.

You're both missing a point I've made at least twice now, starting from my first post. Khalid doesn't have the right complexion for orange hair, so even a top-quality artist (which I don't claim to be) isn't going to be able to make it look good. He's going to look like he suffers from either a bad wig or a bad dye job. If you've got a counter-example that proves me wrong, by all means, link it. And if you think the hair looks bad in my edits (it does, as I also said originally) it looked far more horrid with the original flaming orange colour. Also, you should know that Baldur's portraits are not photo-real as the example you posted, and one must make attempts to "baldurise" such material. I'm not saying I was successful at that, but you've called it "pixelized" which is a different thing entirely (see here for examples of that).

But let's put that aside. You're missing a much bigger point. It's one thing to criticise someone's work in the original post and original forum. That's perfectly acceptable, and the forum rules encourage this.

It's another thing entirely to:
1) Trash someone's work on a completely different forum.
2) Trash someone in a language you think he probably can't even read (ordinarily true, but you really should know better).
3) Trash someone's work in general, to the effect of "Miloch really isn't good at graphic work (except maybe BAMs)." That may be also be true (except I don't even claim to be good at BAMs) but it's attacking someone on a personal level (see point #3 in that SHS link above).

That doesn't help the requester improve her portrait requirements, and it certainly doesn't help the responder improve his edits (unless you thought I would read your comments on CoB, which I'm quite sure you did not). What's more, it isn't very conducive to getting others to help you (or the same person to help you going forward). An actual artist (which I don't claim to be, but the original request didn't seem to require a Renoir) might think twice before responding to this and wondering what you folks might be posting about his work behind his back. It's one thing for Poles who don't frequent this forum to make comments in that thread, but your comments are a bit uncalled for, Lava, considering you frequent this forum quite a bit and we've even worked together on a few mods. You could've made those comments here, to my face, and it would've been fine. I am, in fact, actually agreeing with you on most points. It's the manner in which you made the comments I find intolerable. (And that's even in public - who knows what you've said in private forums or messages.)

Anyway, I've withdrawn my edits as they're clearly unacceptable and beyond improvement.

Kirara and Lava have contributed their own visions on Children of Bhaal

Interesting. I'd like to see these "visions" (I promise I won't give "feedback" in a language you can't read).

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#9 Zireael

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 03:34 AM

But let's put that aside. You're missing a much bigger point. It's one thing to criticise someone's work in the original post and original forum. That's perfectly acceptable, and the forum rules encourage this.

It's another thing entirely to:
1) Trash someone's work on a completely different forum.
2) Trash someone in a language you think he probably can't even read (ordinarily true, but you really should know better).
3) Trash someone's work in general, to the effect of "Miloch really isn't good at graphic work (except maybe BAMs)." That may be also be true (except I don't even claim to be good at BAMs) but it's attacking someone on a personal level (see point #3 in that SHS link above).

That doesn't help the requester improve her portrait requirements, and it certainly doesn't help the responder improve his edits (unless you thought I would read your comments on CoB, which I'm quite sure you did not). What's more, it isn't very conducive to getting others to help you (or the same person to help you going forward). An actual artist (which I don't claim to be, but the original request didn't seem to require a Renoir) might think twice before responding to this and wondering what you folks might be posting about his work behind his back. It's one thing for Poles who don't frequent this forum to make comments in that thread, but your comments are a bit uncalled for, Lava, considering you frequent this forum quite a bit and we've even worked together on a few mods. You could've made those comments here, to my face, and it would've been fine. I am, in fact, actually agreeing with you on most points. It's the manner in which you made the comments I find intolerable. (And that's even in public - who knows what you've said in private forums or messages.)

Anyway, I've withdrawn my edits as they're clearly unacceptable and beyond improvement.

Kirara and Lava have contributed their own visions on Children of Bhaal

Interesting. I'd like to see these "visions" (I promise I won't give "feedback" in a language you can't read).


I did ask people who have accounts at SHS to comment here... To be frank, I'm ashamed of the situation. Lava (may) be right, but her comments are somewhat too aggressive. I didn't expect you to read Polish though... (which does not change the fact that the situation is awful)
I asked Kirara and Lava for permission before giving you links to their works 'cause it's in the closed forum used for betatesting Khalid... if they agree, I'll post links to their images here and your comments will be very welcome.
---------------------------------
I'd use soap to wash the sour taste of this discussion out of my mouth, but it's not possible...
Anyway, anyone else who wants to try his skills is welcome - the reference has been deleted.

#10 Lava Del'Vortel

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 05:44 AM

I can post it myself, Zi.
Posted Image
It may look too human, I am no artist and I can't baldurize a portrait as other people would. This work is fine with me, even though some other people won't like it. It's natural.

Miloch, I'm sorry if you feel offended. I believe you are really great coder, really helpful person who rescued me not once or twice, but many times, you did great job with Aurora, Infinity Animations and without your help many mods would suffer, but still I believe that are better artists, because I think that your work miss some details. As for example on your avatar (if that's your work, but I think it is) the endge between white and black/dark colour is too...sharp.
I am truly envious of many of your skills, but not this particular one.

What's more, I would never thought that you would be angry because such a thing. Again, I'm sorry - I wouldn't think that you would be so bothered by such a thing.

EDIT:
Also, believe me - I feel better when writing any opunions in Polish. Then at least my English isn't so painful. So, when I could do it here or on CoB...

Edited by Lava Del'Vortel, 19 March 2011 - 05:54 AM.


#11 Miloch

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 06:18 AM

I will comment on your work in a very straightforward and objective manner (despite the fact you did not provide that to me, at least not to my face).

First of all, that portrait violates at least 3 points in the original request:

3. & 4. Dark skin, dark eyes ... (just like it's in the original portrait)
6. Original background
7. Original expression

Second of all, you basically pasted the head in the Zireael's reference portrait onto a modded/cloned portrait background. There are two minor problems with this:

1. It's not what the original request entailed (if it's acceptable, perhaps Zireael needs to revise that request)
2. It's too obvious half is a drawing and the other half a photo. As I said above, this is an issue and you need to (at least try to) "baldurise" any photographic content.

There's a bigger issue here in that you've pasted someone's head on someone else's work (a modded version, but still someone else's content). I only hope you know that person whose head that is - he might not take kindly to being "pasted" thus.

As for example on your avatar (if that's your work, but I think it is) the endge between white and black/dark colour is too...sharp.

Heh. This avatar was three-minute joke job, as should be apparent from the content. Moreover, I did it several years ago before I knew how to blend properly, even if it was in serious (I'll say again - it wasn't). But if you have other comments about my "serious" work (if I have such) I would welcome them if you just told me bluntly to my face - I really would (preferably in whatever posts you've encountered such objectionable work).

And don't give me that "I don't speak English well enough for you to understand my comments." You know English well enough for me to understand you - you just chose to make your comments on some forum on which (you thought) I couldn't understand you. What if I said "Lava doesn't really do dialogue well" and what if I said so on some Spanish forum (or one in some language I thought or knew you couldn't read)? No doubt, you'd get offended. On the contrary: I've actually recommended your mods recently on this forum (something I might reconsider were I a vindictive sort of person, but I'm not, and I won't without reason).

Edited by Miloch, 19 March 2011 - 06:21 AM.

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#12 Zireael

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 06:33 AM

1. It's not what the original request entailed (if it's acceptable, perhaps Zireael needs to revise that request)


It is acceptable, but it is not what I meant when posting the request. Perhaps Lava did not read the request before posting.
I can consider (and will) putting Lava's portrait as one of the alternates in the mod, but I'd really prefer something that goes with the request, like Kirara's work does.

#13 -Lava-

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 07:21 AM

Actually, I think my dialogues could be better and I can never reach level of English writers. What's more if I were more sure of my English I would probably write more - both mods and posts at SHS. I take it as fact because I already wrote 3 different mods and never get them released due to proofreading my dialogues...

As for portraits - well, that was the reason why my portrait was never posted here. I decided to make the portrait I would see for BG2 and I told Zi that I would see it more BG2 canon - with clouds in the background, with frontal pose etc. I told her that she may use it if she wish to, if not then it's still fine.

As for coping images - almost every portrait request at forums violates this rule. Those are portraits found on the internet. And what's more, I don't mind not using it, if model wish so, it may be as well deleted.

I already apologized, you know that I cosider you really great modder as well as person. I apologized also for not telling it face to face. If you wish to tell me something more, say that you're disappointed or something, I think private conversation would be a better idea.

I have no idea what else I can tell you.

#14 -Kirara-

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 07:46 AM

Interesting. I'd like to see these "visions" (I promise I won't give "feedback" in a language you can't read).

So here's my version:

Posted Image

but your comments are a bit uncalled for, Lava

And, Miloch, don't be concerned. Lava is always like that on CoB. [By the way, users from CoB [I'm not only talking about myself] who have different opinions from his and those who dare to criticize his doings/projects/ideas he usually just insults. And never apologizes.]

#15 Miloch

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 08:28 AM

Actually, I think my dialogues could be better and I can never reach level of English writers.

I wasn't actually criticising your dialogues - it was just an example. And in any case, I wouldn't pretend to be such an expert on dialogue that I would be in such a position to offer such criticism, were it true or not (*hint hint* :P).

So here's my version

That actually isn't bad. Although I still don't agree with Khalid having red hair, you've managed to make it look not totally incongruent. Were I you, Zireael, I'd just offer 2 subcomponents for the portrait:
1) BG1 Original
2) Kirara's Edit

And leave it at that. There are too many mods that offer 3, 4 or even more portraits, when the average player is probably asking "Huh? I just want to install your mod!"

And, Miloch, don't be concerned. Lava is always like that on CoB. [By the way, users from CoB [I'm not only talking about myself] who have different opinions from his and those who dare to criticize his doings/projects/ideas he usually just insults. And never apologizes.]

Actually, Lava's always been relatively cordial to me, which is why I found it surprising. But at least if Lava insults you on your own forum (in a language you understand), you have an opportunity to respond (or ignore it, as the case may be). In this case, I don't think Lava expected I would.

And I guess I accept Lava's apology, though it took a while to extract it. I would be dishonest if I said it wouldn't colour any future requests for my help though (not saying I won't help - just saying I might think twice about what you may be saying about me in some other language on some other forum).

P.S., just a thought about previous comments: Though it might by "ok" to put (let's say) an actor's head (or someone else often in the public image) on a game designer's portrait, I would think twice before putting some random guy's head on a portrait, from a picture that appears (presumably) on his personal site, and frankly, I wouldn't even offer that as a choice unless you knew the guy and asked him first. I believe there's a lot of hypocrisy in portrait-editing "rules" (saying for example, "you can edit this portrait and not that" or that someone can edit BioWare's portrait without asking them, but gods forbid someone else editing their edit). But nevertheless, why leave yourself open to that if you can avoid it reasonably (in this case you can).

Edited by Miloch, 19 March 2011 - 08:28 AM.

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#16 Zireael

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 08:35 AM

1) BG1 Original
2) Kirara's Edit


That's what I'm going to do. At first I thought of putting Lava's too, but I'd prefer to avoid any copyright or sth troubles.
I think we can close this thread, though, the point has been achieved. Thanks again Miloch, Lava, and Kirara for contributing to it...
-----------------------------
I'm getting to work on Jaheira's lines, while waiting for a little bumper in dialogue to be resolved.
I'm happy that the portrait issue is closed.
Zi

#17 Lurker of the north

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:59 AM

Sorry if this might be considered a bump... but why the red hair? -No, really; Why???
LotN

#18 Zireael

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:43 PM

Sorry if this might be considered a bump... but why the red hair? -No, really; Why???


His avatar has red hair. It's mentioned somewhere in the original dialogue that he has red hair. And the original portrait, well, looks pretty silly, like he's got no hair underneath the helmet.

#19 Zireael

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:43 PM

Sorry if this might be considered a bump... but why the red hair? -No, really; Why???


His avatar has red hair. It's mentioned somewhere in the original dialogue that he has red hair. And the original portrait, well, looks pretty silly, like he's got no hair underneath the helmet.
And in nearly all fanart, he has red hair.

#20 Miloch

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 12:13 PM

It's mentioned somewhere in the original dialogue that he has red hair.

Where, exactly? Because I just scanned both BG1 and BG2 dialog.tlks and found nothing like that.

Note that the NPC creature avatars rarely match their portraits. One example is Alora, who clearly has pink hair in her portrait, yet it shows up as orange-red on her avatar. Same goes for Khalid, who clearly has dark brown eyebrows and sideburns in his portrait (and his skin is definitely not the "light carnation pink" you get with his avatar - it's at least a dark tan). Plus it is practically impossible Khalid would've inherited red hair from either a Calishite or an elven parent. It is remotely possible if he is of wood elf heritage, but it would be a dark coppery colour, not an auburn red (and far more likely to be closer to dark brown or black).

I don't think you can use fan art to justify his appearance, heh. (There's Khalid fan art beyond what's in this thread?) The smart thing to do would be to match the avatar colours to the portrait depending on which portrait the user selects (something the game designers didn't coordinate that well).

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