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#101 -me-

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 09:24 AM

ALIEN seems offended by that... which is weird. I don't get offended when people report bugs, i like it, it helps me perfect my mods.

You didn't really report a bug though.. you made a single, blanket statement and said BWFP just destroys whatever it touches.

Imagine a new player saying subtledoctor's mod destroys everything it touches. Would you call that a bug report?

#102 Almateria

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 09:38 AM

Can we finally lock posting by guests?



#103 The Imp

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 09:48 AM

Excuse me for misspeaking. But that is hardly the operative issue, which is that I encountered a nasty bug with the fixpack and ALIEN seems offended by that... which is weird.

Hmm, maybe you should have some outsider read the posts above and tell you how they see what was written by everyone and then talk about it. The way you said the above was the wrong way to say it. You do understand the difference between: what I said happened and then the what you said happened ?
I do understand, but you didn't exactly go into detail on what was off in the install from your results. Maybe it was an OS issue, or wrong execution of some variation.. I have no idea, but we would have needed to be informed about that, instead of casually just dismissed as, "this does everything wrong"... when we have no retort opportunity.


Edited by The Imp, 12 November 2017 - 09:51 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#104 -me-

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 09:50 AM

You know, while I generally agree with your position on topic at hand, your offtopic here is way below any shred of civility we might hope to achieve. Do you think you could kindly stop digressing from BWS and things? If anything, you are devaluating your own cause.


Edited by Creepin, 12 November 2017 - 10:07 AM.


#105 subtledoctor

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 11:39 AM

The way you said the above was the wrong way to say it. You do understand the difference between: what I said happened and then the what you said happened ?
I have, and already had, acknowledged that and clarified. I didn't want to do a full bug report here because this thread is not really the appropriate place to do so. I mentioned that I don't know where to report BWFP bugs, and STILL nobody has pointed me to it.

Seriously, is there a subforum for it? A thread? Why does this have to be a guessing game? I don't hide the places to discuss my mods... there is a big thread to discuss Scales of Balance that is called "[MOD] SCALES OF BALANCE." No need to be mysterious...

Anyway if you guys won't tell me the information for whatever reason, I just I'll just post it here, even though it's off-topic

Spoiler

Edited by subtledoctor, 12 November 2017 - 11:43 AM.


#106 Sam.

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 09:27 PM

All this shit slinging inspired me to crawl through the contents of the BWFixpack just to gauge the merits of demanding every modder do just that on a constant basis.  I'm not a fan of the idea.  I did it once last year, once this year, and I might be bothered to do it once next year.  If someone wants me to fix something in one of my mods or tools, the first step should be informing me there is a problem.  If someone else wants to provide people with a well implemented and comprehensive fix for an issue, great.  If they want me to implement that fix in the actual mod, I have to be informed it exists:  a post in the mod or tool's official support forum, a PM at pretty much any (English) IE modding site, an email, a GitHub Issue ticket, a GitHub pull request.  Hell, I'd even respond to a Facebook message; I'm really not that hard to contact and have been modding for right at a decade now.  Does BWFixpack have a forum somewhere?  If not, it really should.

 

I did not find any outstanding fixes for my mods.  What I did find was that for a mod which I have taken over the maintenance of (with permission), incorporated all of the existing BWFixpack fixes into, and put on GitHub with a full release and updated version number, the outdated BWFixpack patches have still not been removed from the Fixpack.  This is despite the fact that TWO of the Fixpack's maintainers have known about this patched version on GitHub for over a year.  One of them was given explicit permission to modify BWS to point to this updated version and remove the (now unnecessary) patches from Fixpack.  This was in February.

 

What more can be expected of me?  Like all of you, I am a volunteer with limited time and resources.  As such, I feel that no one here has a right to demand anything of me, nor do I make demands of anyone else.


"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart-arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!"

-- to Portalbendarwinden

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___________Old pen and paper modules of the 70s and 80s.___________

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#107 jastey

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 11:21 PM

- Specifically modder sitting behind the unpenetrable walls of Kerzenburg (german for Candlekeep) are the ones to complain about not being notified when you beed a 10.000GP worth tome if you want to enter their sacred halls. Then they come up with their rules to enforce them on others and call such behaviour *courtesy*....

Leave the Kerzenburgforum out of this. You have a problem with me, say so. To me.

 

And since you keep on posting this publicly, here is what happened. You notified my about a bug in Ascalon's Questpack. This is what I answered:

 

I don't know about AC_Quest's status. It is on my list after I fixed the bugs in that Jarls Adventure Pack.
(I can't even remember having done an update to it or why my name is in the tp2. But I am the right person, in principle.)
In case this something urgent let me know, I just like to work one thing after the other (and frankly, I fear if I stop working on JAP I might not take it up again.)

Obviously, you were so shocked about me not dropping everything I did that instance to dig into the AC_Quest bug you now keep on repeating the silly line about Kerzenburg and the 10,000 gold tome you'd need to be heard there. I ask you politely to switch to a 10,000 gold tome you'd need to talk to me, if you want, but leave the forum out of it.

 

(Actually, the 10,000 gold joke is quite funny - "Kerzenburg" means Candlekeep, after all...)


Edited by jastey, 12 November 2017 - 11:21 PM.


#108 The Imp

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 11:47 PM

Seriously, is there a subforum for it? A thread? Why does this have to be a guessing game? I don't hide the places to discuss my mods...
@subtledoctor, I guess you haven't noticed the Mega Mod Help forum. .. :devil:
That would be the place to start a thread on anything related to the BiG World FixpackS... I can only speak on the behave of the BWS one.
And if I am not entirely wrong, I can't find a thing the BWS Fixpack does to the AC_Quest mod. Cause there's no such folder, as it's probably not used in BWS. Or what ever. I can entirely be wrong.

You are likely talking about the BiG World Projects Fixpack, which is entirely different thing ... though ALIENQuake doesn't want to admit it. -_-

@Sam. Yeah, well, the BWS Fixpack at least, holds it's patches up until the rest of the BWS can update the "in use version" of the mod to a less error prone version to than of it's predecessor. ... most of the time. If the download archive allows that. Which is why there can be several versions of fixes ... but only those that are deployed(according to the mod version that is used) are used.
The resources intended usage is that of immediate in BWS, and in larger scale, a collection of community fixes that you can take a look here and find if there's a so called fix included within the mods own primary folder. Your mods for example don't have any. But there was the hammer fix one's...

I have no idea if you can upload the Infinity Animation files.. but there's a problem in it, besides the one that the BWS Fixpack can fix. It can't actually cover this one, cause it's due to the file names (with the greek letters: £, µ, Æ, Ø, ¢).
It's with computers that don't use the ANSI codec/Windows-1252, as the files are in a .rar archive, which cheeses them up big time, and so forth... If we go into this, as it's a topic of it's own, the fixes essence is to drop the greek characters from all the file names and get the .exe patching to reflect that. And to make it EE compatible, by naming the files just like they are in the EE games, some of the files might be not there in the games .bif's etc, but the .ini's are, at least in BG2EE... blahh blarg, blip blup blop. PM for more info if you think you can handle the large file uploads and the .exe hacking. This is between you and Miloch, and "Help me Obi Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope".

@jastey, like above I said, the BWS Fixpack does nothing to the AC_Quest, so Roxanne is kinda innocent ... as said, Roxanne had nothing to do with the fix that's not in BWS Fixpack, at least today.

Edited by The Imp, 13 November 2017 - 07:02 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#109 jastey

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 11:57 PM

And since I was so good at explaining myself the last couple of posts, I'll try again:

 

-For BWS fixes, all I'd like to see is one post in a mod's forum/thread, stating the bug and ideally the measures of fix being integrated. I do not expect long converations with the modder, repeatedly sent messages, pleas for integration - none of that. But one post. And this post, before the fix is integrated. Or, if that's not possible, shortly aftrwards.

 

Why? Not because the modder's code is being touched, but:

 

-because the modder not scanning all IE forums repeatedly now knows there is a problem

-and also that and how it is addressed for fix

-but also, because players with the same problem now see that their problem is a known one

-and also players see that it is addressed (fixed) via the fixpack

-and, please don't take this the wrong way but read this post until the end to see an example: because just in case the provided fix isn't perfect, there might be someone else spotting it - who otherwise might not have.

 

The last three points do make sense to all of us? To me they do a lot.

 

This is what I meant with "courtesy". It was the wrong choice of words, because it was heard towards the modder only, but it was also meant towards the players, towards the community. Respect on the one hand, but also useful to the community (win-win).

 

Key line:

After the time and dedication to provide a fix for a mod that is not your own, how someone is not interested in spreading the news (not to gloat, but to inform players and other modders it's actually there) is out of my understanding.

 

For the record: I am happy about the EET compatibility patches provided in BWPFixpack for my Ajantis BGII mod because releasing them with the mod would mean I'd need to create an interim version to the local version I am developping currently. I thank everyone involved very much, also for patching these changes to work with v14 that was released hastily by me.

I was also happy about fixes being integrated into BWPFixpack for my mods because I had several longer times of hiatus the last couple of years. I thank for those, too.

 

But also: I am not so happy that fixes that sit in the BWPFixpack do not get revised as repeatedly as some expect modders to go through the fixpack themselves. And also, sometimes fixes only cover up bugs but do not fix them. (Before this is seen as a general bad-mouthing: I am referring to the fixes provided for Ascalon's Breagar in this case. The new lines for the STATE_WHICH_SAYS don't make any sense at all, the switch of ACVIRGI.D and ACVIRGI2.D in the tp2 erased the install error but are the opposite of what was intended in the mod. Replacing the %EDWIN_STATE_X% with a fixed number leads to wrong dlg patching for EET. These are patches which have to serve as a good/bad" example why integrating fixes silently [although I do not know whether these were integrated silently as I wasn't the mod's maintainer when they were provided] is a bad idea.)

 

And as a note: I was unable to locate a link to the BWP Fixpack GitHub repository starting at SHS MegaMod Help forum when looking up the AC_Bre fixes for this post. I ended up using GitHub's search function to find it. I am ready to agree that I might not be the smartest in this regard, but after all the discussion and being at the repository several times I would assume I'd be able to find a link if it's provided at an obvious place. Before this isn't available, all talk about modders should having to spent looking there at regular times and how can anyone not know about BWPFixpack yet is mute, imho.


Edited by jastey, 13 November 2017 - 12:04 AM.


#110 jastey

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:03 AM


@jastey, like above I said, the BWS Fixpack does nothing to the AC_Quest, so Roxanne is kinda innocent ... as said, Roxanne had nothing to do with the fix that's not in BWS Fixpack, at least today.

Where did I accuse Roxanne of anything? Roxanne is currently one of the few / the only person who can be called a Fixpack maintainer and I am thankful for it!

 

For your info: The BWP Fixpack patches for AC_Quest have been removed recently because I did make an update in the meantime. By Roxanne, as far as I know, and I am not saying this to accuse of anything but to point out that I am thankful for his/her work on the BWP Fixpack.



#111 The Imp

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:40 AM

And as a note: I was unable to locate a link to the BWP Fixpack GitHub repository starting at SHS MegaMod Help forum when looking up the AC_Bre fixes for this post. I ended up using GitHub's search function to find it. I am ready to agree that I might not be the smartest in this regard, but after all the discussion and being at the repository several times I would assume I'd be able to find a link if it's provided at an obvious place. Before this isn't available, all talk about modders should having to spent looking there at regular times and how can anyone not know about BWPFixpack yet is mute, imho.

Well, the AC_Bre' folder is here. I found it by looking the main folder and in it just use the browser search "AC", that technically should be the same as the folder name in the mod archive, which is "ACBre". Well, I didn't, but would been able to, if it didn't be the very at the top of the pack.

 

Does this post qualify with your recommendation of a BWS Fixpack - Fix-report post ? PS:There's half-a-dozen, or, so, posts, that, I have, done in this name... some of those are better than others, I'll admit it.


Edited by The Imp, 13 November 2017 - 12:53 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#112 Mirandel

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 06:19 AM

Actually, one separate topic on any forum dedicated specifically to BWS Fixpack with updates mentioned (even without details, simply list of "added fix to mod "N v.X") might be very helpful. As it is done for practically any other mod. 



#113 subtledoctor

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 06:46 AM

@Jarno it's the FixPack from here:

https://github.com/B...G-World-Fixpack

@jastey well-said.

#114 The Imp

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 07:07 AM

@Jarno it's the FixPack from here:
https://github.com/B...G-World-Fixpack
@jastey well-said.
Yeah, so ?
You do know I just pointed jastey one of it's subfolders. And I have pointed the other subfolders to multiple other people.

And yes, I understood that as jastey was commenting about fixes that didn't exist anymore in the fixpack, because Roxanne had removed them as they were not needed anymore. .. as the mod was updated and thus BWS, and so the BW(S) Fixpack were both updated too.

Edited by The Imp, 13 November 2017 - 07:33 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#115 Sam.

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:40 AM

 The resources intended usage is that of immediate in BWS, and in larger scale, a collection of community fixes that you can take a look here and find if there's a so called fix included within the mods own primary folder. Your mods for example don't have any. But there was the hammer fix one's...

I see no folders called hammers nor any patches relevant to the Thrown Hammers mod.  If what you are referring to is
 

:: Hammers - Thrown Hammers v6.0

:: fix an indexing error that causes mod to append too many values to tooltip.2da
:: http://www.shsforums...e-6#entry588879

That issue was fixed and pushed to GitHub the day after I was made aware of it.  That was over a year and several releases ago, but it seems the documentation that comes with BWFixpack has not been updated to reflect that change.


"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart-arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!"

-- to Portalbendarwinden

--------------------

post-10485-0-15080600-1348188745.jpg
___________Old pen and paper modules of the 70s and 80s.___________

CA Forums CA Homepage


#116 The Imp

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:31 AM

Well, the changelog is as old as age. But that doesn't matter so much if the version that the BWS used was the v6.0 of your mod. Not that it likely was, but that was the old principle of view.
Roxanne is on it and has done fine job at administrating the changes that have been needed to be done during this thread. Uuh, the end of the world approaches... :devil:


Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#117 subtledoctor

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:45 AM

The FixPack is great, I don't think it should be curtailed. And I don't even think contributions to it should necessarily wait until after notifying modders. I appreciate Jastey's concern in asking for that, but I also think that would impose a greater burden on the FixPack contributors, which I don't think we should do.

So by all means, get the fix into the FixPack, that way players get the benefit as soon as possible. And the modders can incorporate it when they get a chance.

But there should be some kind of notification at some point. Otherwise you have this scenario: the FixPack patches v1 of the mod, and fixes bug #1. The modder never hears about it, and in the meantime gets a bug report about bug #2. The modders fixes that and updates the mod to v2. Now the player gets a choice when applying the FixPack: the mod being patched is at a higher version number and the patch may not work, the bug may already be fixed, the changes to the mod may even cause it to be damaged by the FixPack. And the player is asked, "do you want to proceed?" while possessing not nearly enough information to make a good choice. IMHO a prudent player will answer "no" which means bug #1 will be re-introduced into their game.

A quick post on the mod's forum - if it is reasonably convenient to do so - is all it would take to make sure that doesn't happen.

#118 -me-

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:08 PM

But also: I am not so happy that fixes that sit in the BWPFixpack do not get revised as repeatedly as some expect modders to go through the fixpack themselves. And also, sometimes fixes only cover up bugs but do not fix them.

 

The point about having outdated or incorrect fixes is exactly why it's suggested to check up on the BWfixpack once in a while.

Having a central location where everyone gather and report and exchange bugfixes for mods is an advantage, as opposed to being in isolated forums waiting for someone to come and notify you. Seeing bugfixes for all sorts of mods would mean there's a flurry of activity and would only inspire more to contribute fixes. On the individual forums, people might get discouraged by the lack of liveliness and assume (sometimes incorrectly) that it's probably not worth reporting or fixing a bug as the author may not respond/acknowledge anyway.

And also the point about checking up on a constant basis is also exaggerated a bit. After the first few times, chances are most mods would've become somewhat stable enough in the BWP that it would be less likely for them to have continual bugfixes. Which means you check up on them even less frequently.

And remember, as the fixes get removed gradually from the BWP fixpack and integrated into the mods, BWP would only get smaller and could (someday) potentially cease to exist. Which means it would be easier to "comb through" or "crawl through" its contents. Seriously, all I had to do was read the documentation (those two text files) for the mod I'm interested in looking up, hit Ctrl-F and type in that mod directory name.

Lastly, jastey, people most likely aren't going to stop notifying bugs to you or other modders after following this thread. Hell, I think I might've even reported to you (some years back) and would still do so once I get back to playing. I'm just saying you shouldn't be upset or outraged that someone didn't notify you and made a fix, as long as their intent is good.





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