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Evil titbit (SPOILER)


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#21 Caedwyr

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 09:31 PM

Any number of ways... they're noble, and thus extremely stupid ;)

Nothing like playing up to player imposed stereotypes that don't have any proof behind them. ^_^ Also, given the way the paladin 'protection' quest works, it seems that its standard operating procedure for the paladins to do a detect evil/alignment spell with anyone they are having dealings with. Also, I'd think that the Radiant Heart would want to try to verify Garen's story through some other means if they had any doubts. I'd have to say that with what the game gives you, trying to shoehorn another explaination around the circumstances seems a bit awkward.

The writing is great, but I'd have to agree with Hendryk that a different reaction could be more appropriate on Garen's part.


But regardless of your decision, keep up the great work. I look forward to the eventual day that I can play your newly released mod as I lie on my deathbed. :P
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#22 Hendryk

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 11:01 PM

Only in so far as he can influence him.  Perhaps there's a not so noble memeber he accepted a bribe?  Perhaps he played pretend and said he saw evil mercenary group 3 do the deed! 

And if Garren turns out to be such a rat as that, maybe the "Evil" titbit actually describes how a genuine paladin might dispatch him; chap wouldn't want to befoul Carsomyr's sacred steel with the blood of such a wretch.
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#23 Caedwyr

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 11:37 PM

Good point. If the story can be written in believable way, then I'm all for the option. I guess its kinda hard to judge a small anecdote without seeing the full context. *nudge, nudge, nudgepleasefinishthemodnudge* :D
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#24 FredSRichardson

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 11:42 PM

Don't worry, you get some close moments with your loved ones, one to ones with your sister, sage advice from your colleagues, and lots of chances for the foolishness of sacrificing yourself for others... weak beings, hardly worthy of breathing your air... but as I said, choice is important, and some fools want those options.

Weak, spineless cowards all of them.


ROFL!
I'm glad your writing these dialogs, Quitch. You have quite a nack for it.
Great stuff, really! :)
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#25 FredSRichardson

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 11:54 PM

And if Garren turns out to be such a rat as that, maybe the "Evil" titbit actually describes how a genuine paladin might dispatch him; chap wouldn't want to befoul Carsomyr's sacred steel with the blood of such a wretch.

I don't know if anyone actually uses an anti-paladin kit (now that would be a neat strong hold to add to the game :D), and I've only seen the "demo" kit used in the tutorial.

But it would make a really interesting anti-paladin character to have someone who believes they were a (normal) paladin, but just thinks the other paladins aren't committed enough. They would believe that they were simply misunderstood by the members of the Radiant Heart, or didn't "see eye-to-eye" on a few points. After all, paladins generally want to smite evil, but no all are willing to go the extra distance and hang evil upside down on a rack and pull it's entrails out...

Makes me think of the Spanish Inquisitors (wait, this must have been done before...).
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#26 Quitch

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Posted 28 February 2004 - 07:40 AM

Only in so far as he can influence him.  Perhaps there's a not so noble memeber he accepted a bribe?  Perhaps he played pretend and said he saw evil mercenary group 3 do the deed! 

And if Garren turns out to be such a rat as that, maybe the "Evil" titbit actually describes how a genuine paladin might dispatch him; chap wouldn't want to befoul Carsomyr's sacred steel with the blood of such a wretch.

That particular ending comes from choosing "Kill Garren slowly", while you are also offered other options, such as killing him quickly, demanding money, asking questions...

I don't force people to do anything. There are always choices for both good and ill, and those are broken down even further most of the time.

Choice. That is my objective for this mod, and when we take on beta testers I'll be getting them to point out obvious options that I missed.

I think we have a disagreement over the way people face death. Once you see the context, I think this will fit better in your minds. If it doesn't, you can raise it with me and I might change it in a patch. I'm always open to debate, just be sure you're willing to fight your corner tooth and nail. I do things a certain way because I believe it's the right way, so you'll need to show me why my way is wrong.

However, I know that the path of evil is the only true path. All others lead only to weakness, death, and a destiny controlled by others. The good and neutral exist on this world only so that people, such as myself, may have servants and slaves, the one thing they are good for.

#27 -Cybersquirt-

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Posted 28 February 2004 - 08:36 PM

I undertand (and support) the need for choice; these option make even more sense when we remember that we're dealin with/playing a Bhaal spawn. So long as that's not the only purpose for it, else it becomes mindless slaughter - which also has it's place, but anything can be overdone and then it becomes pointless.

Having the option to kill Garren in such a way works, imo, because it's Garren - Garren represents all that is 'just and good' ..or, at least, that's what bg2 has us believing. But when/if we are presented with the option to kill everyone in such 'glorious' fashion it looses meaning.

I like, and appreciate, mods that take risks and make available options that mainstream game designers miss or, simply won't do (for legal reasons, etc). But balance will always be important to me. For much the same reason we (I) criticize BG2 for being too good (geared to the good RPers), there can be such a thing as being too bad.

btw, I thought Garren died beautifully. Not too hard, not too soft.. ;)

#28 Quitch

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 01:21 AM

Well, you already know the context (pretty much), and you know what most of the dialogue options are, so you don't need me to answer to that. I'll assume that your beta feedback to date has accurately reflected your views.

#29 -Cybersquirt-

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 03:50 AM

It has indeed. I was just trying to clarify my previous post along with my thoughts on 'where the gaming community stands' as I stand in it. :)

btw, that line should read - *when* we are presented with the option..

you know I love your work Quitch; if you didn't, now you do. B)

#30 Raistlin

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 05:49 PM

Great writing for great content!

Also, I completely disagree with you, Hendryk. Garren's reaction doesn't seem at all improbable. Saying that he merely faces death is borderline absurd. I think it's fair enough to claim that there are very few who would simply accept death if they knew they were facing it. Under the bootheel of a demi-god, I think it's more than reasonable that he breaks down in his final moments of helplessness, one of the most powerful emotions.

It reminded me very much of the intro movie for Baldurs Gate 1, which is probably the best introduction to a game I've ever seen. Definitely a good sign.

While this is very likely too much work, and I'd probably be damning us all to an extra year-long delay if it were to be implemented, different methods of killing him (or anyone else for that matter) based on class would be interesting. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who can imagine the various ways in which a Mage or Cleric could squeeze out the last few breaths of life out of the next helpless victim. It seems more likely to me that a Mage would prefer an accelerated plague to a violent, skull-fracturing stomp.

Then again, sticks and stones are simply two different means to the desired end.

#31 Quitch

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 06:50 AM

Without any context, it's difficult to judge whether it is Evil or merely nasty. For instance, Garren's reaction seems extreme, and improbably pathetic, if he's merely facing death. If his fate is to be transformed into an eternally damned Undead or an even more Evil Deathknight of Demogorgon, that's another matter.

So if there is some greater Evil purpose in the background, it works fine. If not, then eh?

This section has since been changed... slightly.

#32 Michel

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 09:43 AM

As long as people are suffering, Quitch will be happy.

Hehehe

#33 -Intikhan-

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 04:19 PM

Hmmm.. Deffinately a good example of evil, but a little on the brutish side. I don't think my evil sorcerer would dirty his hands (or rather, his boots) in this manner.

I believe you mentioned this being the description for a "kill Garren slowly" option. Will there be other descriptions of this scene based, perhaps, on character stats or even class?

#34 Quitch

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 11:27 PM

There are limits to what I can do. I can't kill him with magic because I wouldn't know if you had the spell, and I'm sure you don't want me casting them for you.

#35 Necaradan

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 10:43 AM

Quote "Don't forget lust, that isn't tamed here either."

- Does this mean we get to abuse Garrens innocent young daughter

Anyway I have to agree with Hendryk. I think Garrens death is pathetic and weak. As a knight he should face *any* death without cringing, his lands have been taken by a dragon and does not show fear he recruits help in dealing with the problem, he is a noble and as such probably raised with a sword in his hands, he raised his daugther on tales of paladins. Granted Garren would likely find the PC Bhaalspawn totally unstoppable but that should change nothing and maybe even fuel his fury.

It's my opinion that any spineless individual who will lay down and die without fighting to the last breath does not deserve to live cause when you lose everything the only thing you've got left is your life. Of course this does not override dying for your principles you live by (as long as they are good ones).

Whoever said that if Garren (somehow) turns out to be a bad guy and it's the good PC killing him is just wrong. A Paladin should destroys evil he should not torture it. The evil ones will get what's coming to them on the other side anyway.

About the spellcasting thing, you wouldn't be really casting a spell for people just describing a graphic magical death something like the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade when the dude sips from the wrong cup or even Raiders of the Lost Ark when the Nazis open the lid

A nice graphical description of a garroting would be good for a thief too; PC quickly steps up to Garren and wraps a cord around his neck, face turning purple, eyes bulging....

#36 Quitch

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 12:20 PM

Adding invisible items and spells begs the question of why the player can't use them on other characters.

#37 Necaradan

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 03:25 PM

For the same reason ya can't really step on heads...

#38 Quitch

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 07:21 AM

Anyone with a strength of 15+ could easily crush a skull to jelly. 15+ may be normal for adventurers, but it makes you a veritable superman compared to others of your race.

#39 Necaradan

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 08:53 PM

I know that for a person it is possible to step on heads (I have done it myself, don't tell the cops)

What I meant was that ingame there is no way for your character to walk up to someone and crush their skull but you still let them do it in the dialogue you've shown us. So why can't the character use a life draining spell or something in the dialogue even if they can't do the same ingame

#40 Quitch

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 11:21 PM

A spell, in the world of AD&D, needs to be memorised, your feet are always available to you.