65 replies to this topic

[Sir guestalot]

3) not be able to move around. How it got in that cave is a complete mystery to me 

Many dragons are able to shapeshift in human form. Think at Firkraag, Adalon, Draconis, Abazigal. This way they could get in a cave.

Not really:P almost every time you encounter a dragon in BG theres a large hole outside of its lair:P

[T.G.Maestro]

True, it would be most dangerous for a dragon to have to shapeshift into a small human form every time they wish to leave their lair - it is much more comfortable and safe to have a large entrance, where the creature can pass in it's true form if needed.

[oralpain]

Over the various editions of the game they have dramatically increased the size and power of dragons.

An ancient 1st edition red dragon would be around 80 feet long and have 88 hitpoints.

A 2nd edition great wyrm red dragon would typically have around 120-140 hit points and be roughly 350 feet long, including tail.

A 3rd edition red dragon could be more than double the size and have more than six-times the hit points.

Personally I think 3rd edition dragons (actually the whole system in generall) are an absurd example of inflation for no good reason. They do work for computer games however, as AI in every computer D&D game so far has been throughly pathetic, they need the hit points to be a worth while adversary.

In PnP, if the number of hit points is any where near the most significant factor of a dragons power, the DM is doing something wrong.

Edited by oralpain, 04 May 2005 - 07:13 PM.

[discharger12]

After recently finishing HoW, I was curious if it mattered that the Queen's body was quite young. (Remember she sucked out her babies' souls to keep the bodies)

I can't remember if she mentioned when she had done this, but would the body be small anyway, because of the age?

Edited by discharger12, 27 May 2005 - 04:55 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Personally I think 3rd edition dragons (actually the whole system in generall) are an absurd example of inflation for no good reason. They do work for computer games however, as AI in every computer D&D game so far has been throughly pathetic, they need the hit points to be a worth while adversary.

I can't say I agree with you. I always found the 3rdE changes on Dragons essential, something that must have been implemented in the earlier versions too. It was always a joke how one of Faerun's most ancient and powerful race were easily slaughtered by mere 10-15th level parties (both in pnp and at the computer games).
We had a most interesting discussion about Dragons (and their under/overpoweredness) many months ago, but I just don't have the patience to dig it out.

[Feanor]

Over the various editions of the game they have dramatically increased the size and power of dragons.

An ancient 1st edition red dragon would be around 80 feet long and have 88 hitpoints.

A 2nd edition great wyrm red dragon would typically have around 120-140 hit points and  be roughly 350 feet long, including tail.

A 3rd edition red dragon could be more than double the size and have more than six-times the hit points.

Personally I think 3rd edition dragons (actually the whole system in generall) are an absurd example of inflation for no good reason. They do work for computer games however, as AI in every computer D&D game so far has been throughly pathetic, they need the hit points to be a worth while adversary.

In PnP, if the number of hit points is any where near the most significant factor of a dragons power, the DM is doing something wrong.

I totally disagree. The dragons are supposed to be the most powerful race on the Prime, after all. Some characters and races are just simply overpowered because that is the concept. The dragons are not meant to be sparring-partners for adventurers to get gold and glory. It is very normal for humans-sized races not to stand a chance against a dragon for the same reason as a cat does not stand a chance against a lyon.
Your argument sounds like you consider that the dragons were put in Toril for the sole purpose of confronting (and being beaten as well) adventuring partys in pnp campaigns. I don't see things the same at all.

Edited by Feanor, 28 May 2005 - 04:34 AM.

[Andyr]

I would suggest that while an individual ancient Dragon is probably one of the most powerful creatures on the Prime, certain other races (notably Underdark monsters like the illithid, beholder and aboleth, or powerful undead) would be equal in power to a younger dragon...

[T.G.Maestro]

I would suggest that while an individual ancient Dragon is probably one of the most powerful creatures on the Prime, certain other races (notably Underdark monsters like the illithid, beholder and aboleth, or powerful undead) would be equal in power to a younger dragon...

That is true Andy.
OTOH, the fact that high level adventurers become powerul anough (after a certain level) to single-handedly challange (and defeat) Dragons is still hardly acceptable. Even when in groups, such a feat should be considered one of the most glorious and dangerous act for heroes. BG2 (and most of the FR games tend to destroy this image by allowing players to defeat PAIRS of dragons with their miserable character... :glare:

I completely agree here with Feanor and the "cat-lion" example. No matter how long and efficient a cet trains, it just won't become powerful enough to match the might of a lion (especially if we consider that the lion gets experience and greater powers at the same time as well).

[Feanor]

I completely agree here with Feanor and the "cat-lion" example. No matter how long and efficient a cet trains, it just won't become powerful enough to match the might of a lion (especially if we consider that the lion gets experience and greater powers at the same time as well).

Maybe the cat could learn to use the Force...

[Archmage Silver]

What about something like this: a group of elementalist spellcasters (specialized in using fire magic) confronts a white dragon with multiple fire spells. The result is uncertain, but the spellcasters would stand a chance... the dragon couldn't possibly resist all spells.

[T.G.Maestro]

Of course Silver, I never said that there aren't any capable groups out there who would be able to successfully challange these creatures (especially the smaller/younger ones). The situation you describe would most likely result in the death of the white wyrm.
Another great example on a believable battle against an old Blue Dragon can be found in the Trials of the Rulemaster expansion for IWD - there is a tale of 4(5?) high-level knights (fighters and paladins) who seek out that beast to slain him - the battle is highly dramatic, and at it's end, the last remaining knight deals the fatal blow to the creature - though he dies as well, being severly wounded already. I liked that story, to be honest.
Now, I don't say that Dragons should be invincible in pnp or FR computer games - I'm merely aiming for a different standard of Dragons (as opponents). As always, I say 3rdE > 2ndE.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 30 May 2005 - 03:03 AM.

[Feanor]

What about something like this: a group of elementalist spellcasters (specialized in using fire magic) confronts a white dragon with multiple fire spells. The result is uncertain, but the spellcasters would stand a chance... the dragon couldn't possibly resist all spells.

Only if they had the time to cast them. The dragon would blast them in a second with his breath.

[T.G.Maestro]

Either way, a (currently inactive) component of the Refinements mod aims to take care of this in-game problem.
Creature Revisions: Dragons

[Archmage Silver]

Only if they had the time to cast them. The dragon would blast them in a second with his breath. tongue.gif

Young whites ain't that fast or smart.

[T.G.Maestro]

A younger (or even an adult) White Dragon is far less of a challange then a Red or Gold Dragon for example. While a wjite wyrm is truly less intelligent, and is likely lacking any magical powers, an ancient Red Dragon not only has tremendous physical power and a cunning intellect, it has a nice magical armada of innate/arcane spells and items at his/her disposal.

[T.G.Maestro]

Making sure the dragon has plenty of hitpoints and is a big challenge for players?
Add items that recharge daily(definitely makes it worthwhile, otherwise it just makes the game difficult without good payback...)

Um.. What do you mean exactly?

[T.G.Maestro]

Ah well, ok then. It makes sense I admit. The so-called hoard of these BG2 Dragons was always pathetic. A good counter-example is Vixxthra from NWN - Hordes of the Underdark.

[Feanor]

Ah well, ok then. It makes sense I admit. The so-called hoard of these BG2 Dragons was always pathetic. A good counter-example is Vixxthra from NWN - Hordes of the Underdark.

True, but the creators thought you will get too many goodies.