232 replies to this topic

[Grim Squeaker]

I'd like to address the spawn point issue here. If you just concert the BG1 areas, as was done in the early versions of Tutu and I assume happens in BGT, you get the spawns but they are automatically of their highest level (spawn points are meant to reflect the level of the party, and do in BG1 and BG2). What Tutu did was include scripts in the areas to simulate this effect in Tutu errors. This means your level 1 character won't be attacked by 5 KILLAR DAETH KRAETURZ when he should be attack by 2 gibberlings and a badger.

Salk, while I respect your ideas I'd prefer not to just include random tweaks in this conversion. It should basically be bringing BG1 to BG2 in the best possible conversion with an optional transition. While randomised traps etc are good ideas (and was suggested by me at G3 yesterday), they shouldn't be include in a BGT-Tutu package where they could be included in a seperate mod/tweak pack.

Edit: I don't want the transition to be non-optional mainly because this forces people to play it when they may just want to play BG1 in a cool new engine and then move on to BG2. We shouldn't force the new material on them. While the mod sounds good, and I'd probably install it, assuming it turns out well, it shouldn't be compulsory.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 15 January 2006 - 04:54 AM.

[Andyr]

I agree--I think the base package should be as minimal as possible. Just the core conversion with the standard content, as true as it can be.

[Salk]

You guys are right about the transition having to be optional because it's added content that should not be forced on any player.

Grim, you're also very right and in my list both removing spawns and partial randomization are now suggested tweaks!

[Ascension64]

I agree--I think the base package should be as minimal as possible. Just the core conversion with the standard content, as true as it can be.

I concur. Again I hated the fact that TuTu tries to force these extra bits on the user during the core installation. I had considered throwing in tweaks with the BGT-WeiDU installation, but decided on making the tweaks separate just for the very reason not to impose upon the user at install-time. Hence, the BGT-WeiDU 0.99 ZETA installation is core+bugfixes only...and I do not think bugfixes should be optional in a merger.

[Salk]

[...and I do not think bugfixes should be optional in a merger.

Absolutely correct! Bugfixes should always be part of the core installation...

[SimDing0]

I concur. Again I hated the fact that TuTu tries to force these extra bits on the user during the core installation.

I agree up to a point. Putting the NPC kit choices in the core installer has always been an aboslutely atrocious idea. However, my design philosophy for what I was willing to put in Tutufix, while rather obscure, did have some method to it. Bugfixes, obviously, are non-optional. Anything else which is arguably important for providing the optimum experience, such as the worldmap update or summons rebalancing, but which can't be justified as a fix goes optionally in Tutufix (which we shall assume to be the "core package" here). Anything which blatantly nobody's going to like can go in a tweak pack or something.
So, effectively, I contend that the role of the core package is to provide the optimum, customizable, experience. I see no reason for it to be "minimalist" unless there are specific things over which choice may differ.

[Salk]

SimDing0 has a point here.

We must think: is there some space between Core fixes and Tweaks ? I think so.

Some modifications can't be classified as real fixes but objectively enhance the gaming experience without altering the game spirit. It's difficult, I understand, to agree about what should be included here though...

[Borsook]

I'd say that as long as the player is asked whether or not to install something it doesn't really matter where it is included.

[ronin]

I'd say that as long as the player is asked whether or not to install something it doesn't really matter where it is included.

I see it the same way.

ronin

[Grim Squeaker]

I'd say that as long as the player is asked whether or not to install something it doesn't really matter where it is included.

The problem is with that is the installer is gonna get more and more packed with obscure tweaks. I mean, G3 Tweaks must contain 20+ tweaks, Ease of Use 15+, Ding0 tweaks 10+. So would you really want the install package for your BG1 converter to include God knows however many little tweaks with it? I'd want the install package to be limited to things like:

- Core conversion
- Adding map notes
- Adding journal entry sorting

Other than the core conversion, things I recommend include are little not technically fixes but things which make it kind of consistant e.g. map notes: you don't have them in BG1 but now its on the BG2 engine, it'd be nice to have consistancy and have them in BG1 as well.

[Andyr]

I think if you bundle something in the core package then people will assume it is somehow something they should be using because they don't read the documentation. People press 'y' to everything if it is in the 'core' download.

[SimDing0]

And, indeed, map notes and journal entries *are* something everybody should be using.

[seanas]

my requirements would include, but not be limited to:

BG1 -> BG2 transition, including chapter continuity (altho resetting Reputation is a good idea)
BGT itm/ cre/ bcs naming (ie, no more _NAME)
Tutu are naming
Yacomo's worldmap, or whichever version is the most recent come release date

i'd prefer a TOB requirement (i know, the content is crap, but the ruleset is, i reckon, essential). i dont care eiather way about TOSC support: i'd go with 'whatever is easiest to code'.

and: what's wrong with Tutu spawns that requires the removal of spawn points, and how is the solution better than the current BGT solution?

[Grim Squeaker]

The bugs in the original Tutu spawn points, I cover a few posts up. They are now nice and fixed, which I assume the BGT ones aren't.

Why bother changing the worldmap? Can't it just changed from the BG1 one to the BG2 one when you switch game?

And with the naming, surely it makes more sense to prefix the old name rather than coming up with new names? That way if someone knows the name of the BG1 file they instantly know what its Tutu one is, without arsing about looking it up.

As for the ToB ruleset being essential, what do you mean by the ruleset? Almost every function ToB adds is already in the game and just needs IDS appending (an obvious exception being MakeGlobal() but thats not needed for BG1). You aren't gonna need HLAs in BG1 and the wildmage is pretty optional.

[Borsook]

and how is the solution better than the current BGT solution?

closer to what you get in bg1?

[kharan5876]

Worldmap question is something to consider. I assume Tutu uses the original BG1 map and then changes to a different map for BG2?

BGT players might prefer a map that has both worlds included.

We also have to consider support for mods that add world map icons and traveling.

Personally, I will always just install Yacomo's world map at the end.

Edited by kharan5876, 15 January 2006 - 10:00 AM.

[Grim Squeaker]

Worldmap question is something to consider. I assume Tutu uses the original BG1 map and then changes to a different map for BG2?

BGT players might prefer a map that has both worlds included.

We also have to consider support for mods that add world map icons and traveling.

Personally, I will always just install Yacomo's world map at the end.

I wouldn't make that assumption by default. If a mod wants to add travelling between BG2 areas and BG1 areas they can add a huge map to do it. But as in this mod it would just be BG1->BG2->ToB you might as well just have 3 maps and replace the old one with the new one as you complete those sections.

[Andyr]

And, indeed, map notes and journal entries *are* something everybody should be using.

Those ones are probably fairly safe bets, yeah, but there's other things in Tutufix which are less essential than the aforementioned tweaks-walking speed, BG1 style summoning spells, hooded avatars and so on.

[Hety]

Well if it came to maps in the end i think that 2 options should be present at least:
1. Separate maps(with keeping original BG1, BG2/TOB maps). Which i would use if u ask me. BG1 map owns imo.
2. One big map(Yacomo's one or any other 'global' map)

Tho BG1 map is bit small. Widening borders is an option formodders to be able to add areas w/o problems with positioning and overcrowding of map.

[SimDing0]

walking speed

BG2 walking speed is unfortunate in BG1. If this actually worked properly, it should be core.

BG1 style summoning spells

Should be core. BG1 should have BG1-style summons.

I prefer the BG1-style worldmap. However, changing wordmaps between BG1 and BG2 is not technically feasible without merging SoA and ToB. While a cleaner solution, this would be a joke for compatibility. Bottom line is that anybody who wants a transition MUST have the combined BG1/BG2 map.

BGT itm/ cre/ bcs naming (ie, no more _NAME)

If BGT does anything other than a one-character prefix then that's stupid and there's no way it should be used. If it does a one character prefix then I'm indifferent, but the naming convention may as well stay the same as that for areas. Either way, I see no reason to use BGT's.

Edited by SimDing0, 15 January 2006 - 11:04 AM.