250 replies to this topic

[berelinde]

Tempest, on May 13 2007, 10:27 PM, said:

Another question: about how many player-initiated flirts are there usually for each stage of the romance?

That's a tough one. From Darian's point of view, the answer will probably lie somewhere between "too many" and "You have *got* to be kidding!" The answer for Tempest is that it depends on what you want to do. There should always be some sort of spectrum of choices, but I don't know if there can be a fixed number. Eight is a good number, but you may want to throw in a couple more as the relationship progresses.

Quote

For example, when you're in a forest area, you can join Darian as he stretches and exercises-doesn't start very romantic, but, well, you can imagine-you'll be able to do it at RA 2 as well, in which case it will be one of the more... suggestive flirts, depending on the choices you make...

I am so happy to hear that, for some reason.

[Tempest]

I thought I'd give a preview of just how the player-initiated flirts will work, since I'm not sure if this system has been done before. First, you force-talk to Darian, then you will pick the option leading to flirting with him. These examples will assume you're at RomanceActive = 4.

Then you will get a menu that looks something like this (the following are just a selection of all the options you'll have-it's by no means a list of all the choices you'll have):
1. (Catch Darian's gaze)
2. (Try to take Darian's hand in yours)
3. (Approach Darian from behind)
4. (Draw closer to Darian)
5. Darian, are your people fond of poety at all?

Now, each of those options will lead to a submenu of flirts. For this example, we'll take option 2: (Try to take Darian's hand in yours). That will lead to Darian reacting, and you getting another submenu:
Darian: (You take Darian's hand, but you can feel the tension in him, and his eyes narrow at you)
1. (Gently try to ease the tension)
2. (Just softly hold his hand)
3. (Grin and squeeze Darian's hand as hard as you can)
4. (Move your hands towards your body)

From here, you go to Darian's pool of reactions. Options 1 and 2 lead to the same reactions, while options 3 and 4 each lead to their own set of responses. Option 3 will also raise your silliness meter by 1, and option 4 will increase your flirt count by 1. And here are sample responses to each:

Possible response to 1 or 2: (Darian frowns, but he does ease ever-so-slightly)

Possible response to 3: (Darian sighs good-naturedly as he realizes your intentions, and withdraws his hand)

Possible response to 4: (Although Darian does a poor job of concealing his unease, he allows you to continue until you touch his hand to your skin, at which point he abruptly withdraws his hand and turns away)

[kismethawk]

Just a query really:

I think I read somewhere that being too forward is likely to break the romance. Are you still intending to keep this feature in? So in that light, will having too high a flirt count do this? Or will we know the romance-breaking-flirt-options when we see them? Sort of like if Charname tries to um...kiss Darian passionately or er...take his clothes off - you know; the extremes.

Secondly, I know this seems an odd request, but will there be any reactions from any of the non-party NPCs to Darian, I mean 'commoners', 'nobles', boys and girls wandering around athkatla. I laughed so much when one of the boys hugged Edwin with admiration...er..okay, maybe that is just me. No, I have no idea what they would say, but hey even Anomen got a 'Why do you look so serious, Sir?' or something along those lines. Ah, maybe I'm asking the impossible; I am clueless about coding

And last: is there an option to steal Darian's clothes while he's bathing; ah, I know he would be too wary to let it happen, but I can see a playful Charname trying to pull that one off. I mean, we don't have to *see* anything (I know you're trying to keep it at PG-13 or somesuch) - just the clothes (she could always leave him a towel or two ) and hey, avariel bathe too, albeit they might be more wary of water after a bhaalspawn pushes them in a couple of times. Oh and how about an arm wrestling match?

Ok, this post turned out to be slightly more than one query and just a little silly.

[Tempest]

Eh, it's no problem. Writing Darian's flirts (especially player-initiated) is actually very hard, because I want to balance a Charname who wants to have fun against Darian's own attitude.

I think I read somewhere that being too forward is likely to break the romance. Are you still intending to keep this feature in? So in that light, will having too high a flirt count do this? Or will we know the romance-breaking-flirt-options when we see them? Sort of like if Charname tries to um...kiss Darian passionately or er...take his clothes off - you know; the extremes.

No, I ended up removing the possibility of killing the romance by being too forward. Just be aware that Darian won't respond very well to certain player-initiated flirts. For example, there is a flirt where you can try to tickle his wings. Unless you're at RA 2, Darian will take major exception to what you're doing. You won't kill the romance, though. And I haven't written any extreme flirts, though there are a few that put you in very dangerous water. But also, don't think Darian entirely lacks a male drive-some of his flirts and flirt responses to imply (and sometimes strongly so) that Darian is indeed physically attracted to you-he simply keeps a very tight grip on his attraction, since if anything, he's even more uncomfortable with his physical attraction to you than his emotional attraction.

Secondly, I know this seems an odd request, but will there be any reactions from any of the non-party NPCs to Darian, I mean 'commoners', 'nobles', boys and girls wandering around athkatla. I laughed so much when one of the boys hugged Edwin with admiration...er..okay, maybe that is just me. No, I have no idea what they would say, but hey even Anomen got a 'Why do you look so serious, Sir?' or something along those lines. Ah, maybe I'm asking the impossible; I am clueless about coding

Oh, there will be probably be something similar with Darian, though he has plenty of interjections/side-conversations with npc's planned.

And last: is there an option to steal Darian's clothes while he's bathing; ah, I know he would be too wary to let it happen, but I can see a playful Charname trying to pull that one off. I mean, we don't have to *see* anything (I know you're trying to keep it at PG-13 or somesuch) - just the clothes (she could always leave him a towel or two ) and hey, avariel bathe too, albeit they might be more wary of water after a bhaalspawn pushes them in a couple of times. Oh and how about an arm wrestling match?

No bathing flirts, I'm afraid (not for SoA, anyhow), simply because I don't envision Darian being that comfortable with his relationship with Charname at any point before ToB. But as I've hinted before, there will be some opportunities for Charname to push things along.

[kismethawk]

Tempest, on May 15 2007, 03:40 PM, said:

No bathing flirts, I'm afraid (not for SoA, anyhow), simply because I don't envision Darian being that comfortable with his relationship with Charname at any point before ToB. But as I've hinted before, there will be some opportunities for Charname to push things along.

Oh no, not an actual bathing flirt (they tend to be a bit more mature than pg-13 for the most part). I mean just steal his clothes when he's bathing. Charname doesn't even get in any water. Hmm but I guess your right about the wariness factor, however, one question: when on earth does he wash then if he is too afraid to take his clothes off and jump in some water?

[Tempest]

Darian has his secrets. Remember that Darian can fly, so he might just head by himself to someplace that's difficult/impossible for you to reach when he bathes. Or just accept that there won't be a flirt like that-I have a clear idea of what I do and do not want in Darian's flirts, and I'm afraid I'm keeping the whole bathing issue strictly off-limits for SoA. I'm sorry, but this is a case of modder fiat-you'll have to wait until ToB for something like that. And as I've said, there will be plenty of other opportunities for Charname to do something fairly similar.

[berelinde]

Not every NPC really needs a "Bathe with" flirt. The idea is fun, and it can be even more fun, depending on where you want to go with it, but if it's just there to satisfy some sort of checklist item, like "comment on Edwin's gender change," it becomes trite.

OT: Don't know if you got the stealing the clothes idea from Gavin, but that was my attempt at making the "bathe with" flirt a little more interesting. Glad you liked it

[kismethawk]

berelinde, on May 15 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

Not every NPC really needs a "Bathe with" flirt. The idea is fun, and it can be even more fun, depending on where you want to go with it, but if it's just there to satisfy some sort of checklist item, like "comment on Edwin's gender change," it becomes trite.

OT: Don't know if you got the stealing the clothes idea from Gavin, but that was my attempt at making the "bathe with" flirt a little more interesting. Glad you liked it

Admittedly this was just me being silly. I think Tempest has a lot on his plate, so to speak, already without me adding nonsense. I just thought it would be funny...it is just me and my weird sense of humour...I was not actually saying to have a 'bathe with' flirt, but rather a tease/pratical joke one, but maybe I was not being very clear *shrug*. I also think NPC banters are much more important anyway

Oh and I've never played Gavin, but I think maybe I should now...just to try him out...Um, where can I find him?

Sorry, I'll leave everyone to it now, um...back to topic right?

[kismethawk]

Ooooh I am so sorry for being annoying. Sorry a thousand times over but...

On the NPC line, I don't remember if this has been covered yet, but a CN Anomen has a chance of bantering with Aerie and coming into conflict with some...er rather bad consequences.

Now I know that mostly you have mentioned that Darian could not care less what other NPCs 'do in their spare time', but I would have thought it odd if Darian did not do something to either a. prevent the conflict from reaching fruitation or b. helping Aerie fight Anomen. Now, I don't hate Anomen, far from it, but it just seems an important thing. I think somewhere there was an idea that Darian finds Aerie...er...how do I put this...annoying? (Hmm...no maybe that is not quite right. ), but still, she is an avariel and he would want to protect her anyway on that fact, right? If he doesn't do anything, can you explain why though?

Again I'm sorry if this has been covered and I have missed it somewhere, in which case can you point me in the right direction? And also you've probably already thought about this, I was just wondering how it was going to be handled, because I'm curious and ask too many questions

Otherwise if you don't want to say because it is spoileristic, then I won't push and you can tell me to er...wait/push off because its all sorted and being/been dealt with.

[Tempest]

Nope, it's no problem to explain. Darian will not interfere in the Aerie-Anomen fight. It's true that Darian would immediately join in the fight if a fellow Avariel was threatened. Problem here is, he does *not* see Aerie as an Avariel. Perhaps she was once, but no longer. It's up to her to decide what she is now-Darian knows she's strong, but he also considers her not very different from any other elf-she is not one of Darian's people, and he feels no overriding duty to defend her. He sees Aerie's fight with Anomen as basically her fault-she knew (or should have known) Anomen was unstable, knew (or should have known) her words would touch a sore spot, and knew (or should have known) he would not respond well. It is/was her decision, as far as Darian's concerned, and it has nothing to do with him.

[Kellen]

He doesn't view her as avariel?

Is that because of the wings issue?

@Kismet, there's a link to Gavin in Berelinde's sig.

[Tempest]

He doesn't view her as avariel?

Is that because of the wings issue?

That's what Aerie thinks, but it's merely a physical reflection of a much more serious-and far deeper-gulf. The Menel'Quessir that Darian hails from are still an extremely proud race, and a large part of how Darian views himself is as one of the Menel'Quessir-the Avariel. It's a rather severe case of cultural identity, and it's even more intense in Darian than typical for an Avariel because his overriding purpose in life as a Talon is to defend his people and everything they stand for to the death if need be. Cracking this cultural and emotional shell is a big part of Darian's evolution over the course of the game, and really the key to why he is so reluctant to admit he has feelings for Charname-she's a race synonomous with the word "enemy" in his culture.

So that's Darian's end of things. Aerie, on the other hand, actually knows very little about Avariel culture, and none of what Darian (and indeed the Menel'Quessir) see as the most important parts of their culture-their history and their future. She was little more than a child when she was captured, and what memories she has are those of a child in a society she did not and could not understand. The lessons would have come in time, but Aerie was captured before she could learn what it meant to *be* an Avariel. Since then, she's heard bits and pieces of information about the winged elves, all distorted and shaded by thirdhand knowledge and the human perspective.

There is an incredibly deep divide between Aerie and Darian. She is a winged elf. She has heard tales of the Avariel. And she is not-and never will be- one of the Menel'Quessir.

[kismethawk]

Thank you Kellen, I should really pay more attention to detail! And now I shall bother people less as I get stuck into a BG1 mod

And thank you Tempest for the explanation, I think I can understand that, I still feel sorry for Aerie though; I know not many people like her, but I do for some reason. I would also assume then, that Darian would not care one way or another whether Aerie becomes Minsc's witch, which was going to be my next question. If Darian had got mixed up in the Anomen/Aerie banter anyway, it might have caused some problems due to the fact that I believe the Aklon mod was going to have Aklon interupt Anomen or fight him or somesuch if he is romancing Aerie, or something along those lines...

[Tempest]

Darian believes that Aerie's destiny and business are precisely that-hers. He'll try to bring Aerie to acknowledge that she's a strong person, but she is set in her course, and Darian will acknowledge and respect that. For a while in Darian's development, I had contemplated Aerie and Darian possibly developing a romantic relationship in Throne of Bhaal, if Darian wasn't already in a relationship with Charname or Mazzy, and I really liked the idea of Aerie coming into her own after seeing just what Darian was, but I ultimately decided against it. There will always be a gulf between them, and they will go their seperate ways.

[Solstice]

I'm sorry if someone's already asked this, but how would Darian react if Charname was a winged elf? The game simply assumes an elven main character is a high/moon/wood elf, but I sometimes set up my main character as though she were a winged elf or drow, for role-playing reasons. Would he react any differently towards a drow or Avariel main character?

[Tempest]

Sorry for seeming so slow lately-writing these flirts is actually the most troublesome part of the mod thus far. I never use any player-initiated flirts in mods, and writing them is a hassle, especially when writing Darian's responses-I've written and rewritten some flirts, even simple ones like the one where you can simply smile at him, several times. The deep, romantic content is a snap for me to write, but the light, flirty stuff is a real stumbling block. Once I finally get the flirts over with, though, expect progress to pick back up again.

I'm sorry if someone's already asked this, but how would Darian react if Charname was a winged elf? The game simply assumes an elven main character is a high/moon/wood elf, but I sometimes set up my main character as though she were a winged elf or drow, for role-playing reasons. Would he react any differently towards a drow or Avariel main character?

Darian would react to a drow like any other elf-he'd be aware you're a dark-skinned, white-haired elf, but he wouldn't know that you're a *drow*-he has no idea what the Illythiiri became after fleeing into the Underdark. Darian and Viconia are antagonistic towards each other because of their personalities-Darian has no problem with the fact that she's a dark elf.

But if Charname were an Avariel... very interesting question. He certainly wouldn't see you as one of the Menel'Quessir, but he would definitely make a point of asking very early on about you family. The fact that you have no idea who your mother really was would pique his interest, and I think that if you showed signs of being receptive to it, Darian would try to teach you about your (and his) people. He certainly wouldn't expect you to really decide for yourself that you are one of the Menel'Quessir, and he wouldn't consider you as such, but I think Darian would probably do his best to convince you to go with him back to Myrrhavin once Imoen was rescued (he, of course, has no idea what is going to happen once you do get to Spellhold), and once there, he'd probably try to influence you to stay in Myrrhavin and be adopted by his (and your) people. In Darian's own words, as spoken to Mazzy when she asks why he came so far on the chance there was an Avariel to free: "I would go to any lengths to rescue one of my people. There are too few of us left. Every life is priceless."

[Solstice]

I know this is a ToB thing, but would I be correct if I predicted that Darian's wraith will be his father? I was reading back through Perspectives and your other comments, and saw how close Darian and his father are-he seems to be by far the most important figure in Darian's life prior to Charname, and you've strongly hinted that Darian is vulnerable to emotions, especially negative ones. Just guessing-you can always give me a "That's none of your business" line.

[Tempest]

Very, very good guess, but wrong. Darian's father was almost going to be Darian's wraith, and back when I still had big differences in mind for Darian's romance depending on whether Charname was a human/half-elf or elf (there are still some differences in lovetalks, but nothing major), Darian's father would have shown up if Charname was a human or half-elf. As it is, the person who's scheduled to show up at the temple of Bhaal in ToB is someone I've carefully avoided mentioning anything about. You'll learn about him/her/it during the romance.

[Ankhes]

berelinde, on May 15 2007, 07:27 AM, said:

Not every NPC really needs a "Bathe with" flirt. The idea is fun, and it can be even more fun, depending on where you want to go with it, but if it's just there to satisfy some sort of checklist item, like "comment on Edwin's gender change," it becomes trite.

OT: Don't know if you got the stealing the clothes idea from Gavin, but that was my attempt at making the "bathe with" flirt a little more interesting. Glad you liked it

This very thing was done in Tsujhatha and it was indeed fun and so was yours berelinde! They both went differently but were done in ways to suit the particular character.

But I can definately see why such a thing would be for TOB only with Darian. Sigh..I have to say that it sounds like the pc has to work so hard to win him over and it sounds like Mazzy would have the opposite - that Darian would pursue her like crazy. Maybe I'm wrong but what a bummer if Mazzy would have it easy.
Of course I still don't think I'll bring her along just to make sure I have Darian all to my greedy little self!

[Tempest]

Quote

But I can definately see why such a thing would be for TOB only with Darian. Sigh..I have to say that it sounds like the pc has to work so hard to win him over and it sounds like Mazzy would have the opposite - that Darian would pursue her like crazy. Maybe I'm wrong but what a bummer if Mazzy would have it easy.
Of course I still don't think I'll bring her along just to make sure I have Darian all to my greedy little self!

Darian doesn't exactly pursue Mazzy, but he isn't trying to avoid her, either. By contrast, the Avariel use the same word for "human" and "enemy", and the same word for "elf" and "one not to be trusted". I know it seems unfair to Charname, but he can and will fall for Mazzy far more readily than for Charname. Of course, once Darian *does* fall for Charname, he falls rather hard...

I'm afraid that for the bathing-style flirt, you may not see that kind of option even in ToB. While Darian would be willing to do such a thing with Charname at that point (he may be very uptight, but he's still a man), I would have a very difficult time writing it. For purposes of even his SoA flirts, he thinks of you as "Charname" first, a woman second (or more properly, in the early stages of the romance, he think of you as a human/elf/whatever first, and as a person second). Darian's is a more intellectual romance-you're going to be shaking the foundations of his world and making him question almost everything he believes in. This is difficult to get across in his lovetalks, since he is such a private person, but it's an interesting and enjoyable challenge.

When he joins the party, Darian is still expecting to live out a fairly normal life for an Avariel warrior. All his epilogues are already written up, and I'll just say that a normal life simply isn't in the cards...