397 replies to this topic

[fallen_demon]

Now my question is, would an insane evil mass murderer pc who used the slayer form as a normal combat ability be redeemed for everything they have done, or should they still be held responsible.

Well, if they are totally raving insane, I would say that they shouldn't be held responsible, because they would be incapable of telling right from wrong. Where exactly to draw the line is always up for debate, and argued over in courtrooms all over the world.

If we're talking about a person who's coherent and knows he's doing something wrong, then I'd say that yes, he's responsible for his actions. I think though, that as long as the person in question *wants* to be redeemed, there is no 'point of no return' beyond which that is impossible.

Redemption doesn't take away responsibility, quite the opposite I would say. Before you can have redemption, you *must* accept responsibility for your past wrongdoings.

Try telling the families of those killed that the insane person shouldn't be held responsible.
In any case, i think what i meant was after the end of tob, should an evil character that gives up their taint become seen as good and let free of their actions, or is what they have done still part of them, furthermore should they be expected to do good, or are they to used to killing to be trusted. keep in mind that giving up the chance for godhood dosn't necesserally mean that they want redemption, They could for example love the npc their romancing enough to stay with them but still be sadistic enough to enjoy killing children.

In my opinion someone redeeming you dosn't mean its them who cause you to want to be good, its after you've done that being redeedmed is being forgiven in the eyes of one of your victams.

By the way I disagree with Arcalian on the matter of both Jon and Sarevok 'not wanting' to be redeemed. There is plenty of angst and unhappiness in both characters from the start - and unhapiness is in my books an indication of desire to change...

maybe deep down, but i don't think they consiously wanted to be redeemed.

[dorotea]

Try telling the families of those killed that the insane person shouldn't be held responsible.

They should be held responsible indeed, it is just their punishment should not IMHO be endless physical torture without relief, since I dont bevieve that either victim or the relatives get much satisfaction from that, and if they do - they become corrupted by this satisfaction

In my opinion someone redeeming you dosn't mean its them who cause you to want to be good, its after you've done that being redeedmed is being forgiven in the eyes of one of your victams.

I think you have a different perception of 'redemption' from me and Laufey. And it is a very common disagrement, so it is not surprising.

See, for me 'redeemed' character does not mean 'forgiven' by his victims or by the victims' loved ones. It also does not mean 'absolved' from their crimes and made clean and pristine 'good'. It simply means 'made aware' of the crimes they have committed and regretting them. It most likely means they will be even more terribly unhappy but striving to change... Honestly I don't believe there is such a thing as absolute goodness or absolute evil.

[Laufey]

I think you have a different perception of 'redemption' from me and Laufey. And it is a very common disagrement, so it is not surprising.

See, for me 'redeemed' character does not mean 'forgiven' by his victims or by the victims' loved ones. It also does not mean 'absolved' from their crimes and made clean and pristine 'good'. It simply means 'made aware' of the crimes they have committed and regretting them. It most likely means they will be even more terribly unhappy but striving to change... Honestly I don't believe there is such a thing as absolute goodness or absolute evil.

*nods* My opinion exactly, don't need to add anything, really. Like Dorotea says, to strive for redemption of necessity means to suffer, because it means being aware of your past crimes and genuinely regretting them.

As for the 'insane' argument, I was speaking of the way the law tends to perceive this. A person who is judged clinically insane is not sentenced to prison, not if he is judged as having been incapable of knowing he did something wrong, he is provided with mental care.

[BobTokyo]

Like Dorotea says, to strive for redemption of necessity means to suffer, because it means being aware of your past crimes and genuinely regretting them.

I agree with this. There is no "redemption" without regret. That said, while I respect the quality of Dorotea's writing, and I've only seen two of the dialogs posted for this mod, what I did see was not encouraging. This is not meant as an attack; only an opinion. In both dialogs (one with Imoen, one with Aerie) Irenicus is written as smug, condescending, aparently untouched by his repeated defeats. The women in those dialogs are written as vulnerable, naive, and meek. Neither dialog seemed to offer the females Irenius was mocking the option of a cool, rationonal response, or the option of an effective cold retort.

Dorotea has posted that the purpose of this mod is not to glorify evil or induldge in an extended fantasy about helpless victims in the hands of a sexy torturer, and I believe her. I'd like to think that later dialogs feature a strong, angry Imoen defending herself with the support of her friends, or a wise Aerie calmly giving a dressing down to the smug and unrepentant Irenicus. Maybe, in later dialogs, his guard drops enough for him to gain some genuine insight into his own character. In the dialogs I saw, well written as they were, there was no sign that this Irenicus was at all redemeable.

[BobTokyo]

I disagree that Areie sounds meek or subsurvient, though. It is my interpretation of Aerie that she is first and foremost the healer, and will mend wounds on a person she neither trusts, not love, and is frightened of. I believe there is an incredible sterngth and bravery in it. She will neither be rude, nor cutting, nor flushy but softly and quetly she says what imo sets the ground aflame under Irenicus' feet.

Domi-sama, I would like to make it clear that I respect the quality of writing in the dialogs. I agree that Aerie will mend the wouldnds of a person she neither trusts nor loves. Still, she can be cutting. It is in her character, and it is not always a flaw. I do not like the idea that Irenicus still has the power to frighten her. After learning her own power, defeating Irenicus three times, surrounded by her friends, I feel strongly that she should be far past fearing him.

[Laufey]

Maybe, in later dialogs, his guard drops enough for him to gain some genuine insight into his own character. In the dialogs I saw, well written as they were, there was no sign that this Irenicus was at all redemeable.

Am not sure which dialogues exactly you read - but most probably they were ones taking place when Irenicus is still very much his old self. As for getting the better of him in a dialogue, I think it's crucial to remember that not only is he very intelligent, but he's old, older than all NPC:s except perhaps Viconia, and knowledgable about the manipulation of emotions. It's not an easy thing to trip him up.

[BobTokyo]

As for getting the better of him in a dialogue, I think it's crucial to remember that not only is he very intelligent, but he's old, older than all NPC:s except perhaps Viconia, and knowledgable about the manipulation of emotions. It's not an easy thing to trip him up.

I guess this comes down to how you see the character. I see Irenicus as very academically and technically intelligent; he'd have to be to become a great magician. I never saw him as having much emotional intelligence; dealing with people seemed to be Bodhi's job, even before the curse. None of his rants ever seemed to show much self awareness or real understanding of the minds and emotions of others; gloating itself is childish. This is probably a symptom of how the entire game is written. As it is, I wouldn't see having a character getting the better of him in a non-technical discussion as difficult.

Edited by BobTokyo, 30 May 2004 - 12:44 PM.

[Laufey]

I do not like the idea that Irenicus still has the power to frighten her. After learning her own power, defeating Irenicus three times, surrounded by her friends, I feel strongly that she should be far past fearing him.

I think Irenicus has power to frighten anyone. He is a souless creature, just pulled out of the depths of Nine Hells by the wo/man who cast him down. He was there plotting and playing in the Demon Wars. He is intelligent beyound believe and have no moral restraints, he killed before without a second thought and he will kill again and again. He is a very frightening person. Even if you know that you have killed him before. Plus, in addition Aerie's friend and ally CHARNAME now brings him in the midst of the party by the insistance of gods, and he walks free... again... it gives Irenicus a mystical aura of invincibility and I know that I would be pissing myself walking alongside this man (?). Imo he frightens every NPC, with one possible exception of Sarevok.

*nods* Yes, I agree with this. Irenicus is *very* scary, and I think pretty much all NPC:s would feel fear of him to some extent - though they would differ in how much they show it, and in what manner.

[Laufey]

As for getting the better of him in a dialogue, I think it's crucial to remember that not only is he very intelligent, but he's old, older than all NPC:s except perhaps Viconia, and knowledgable about the manipulation of emotions. It's not an easy thing to trip him up.

I guess this comes down to how you see the character. I see Irenicus as very academically and technically intelligent; he'd have to be to become a great magician. I never saw him as having much emotional intelligence; dealing with people seemed to be Bodhi's job, even before the curse. None of his rants ever seemed to show much self awareness or real understanding of the minds and emotions of others; gloating itself is childish. This is probably a symptom of how the entire game is written. As it is, I wouldn't see having a character getting the better of him in a non-technical discussion as difficult.

I would say that in fine tuning the 'Soul Extraction Process', it's pretty much necessary for him to learn to manipulate the emotions of others. I for one also think that is how he 'darkened' Imoen, through various mental horrors more than through physical torture.

However, I agree that he isn't equally knowledgable about his *own* emotions. That is one way CHARNAME or certain NPC:s may get the better of him - *if* he doesn't 'attack' first, of course.

[BobTokyo]

I think Irenicus has power to frighten anyone. He is a souless creature, just pulled out of the depths of Nine Hells by the wo/man who cast him down. He was there plotting and playing in the Demon Wars. He is intelligent beyound believe and have no moral restraints, he killed before without a second thought and he will kill again and again. He is a very frightening person. Even if you know that you have killed him before. Plus, in addition Aerie's friend and ally CHARNAME now brings him in the midst of the party by the insistance of gods, and he walks free... again... it gives Irenicus a mystical aura of invincibility and I know that I would be pissing myself walking alongside this man (?). Imo he frightens every NPC, with one possible exception of Sarevok.

As presented in this mod, this may be true. My impressions are formed from the Irenicus of vanilla SOA and TOB, and his career was a litanny of defeats.

Like other posters, I really didn't like turning Irenicus into a cosmic terror in order to put CHARNAME into a position to try to redeem him, though I respect the need to follow that interpretation among those who choose to participate in the construction of this mod.

[BobTokyo]

I would say that in fine tuning the 'Soul Extraction Process', it's pretty much necessary for him to learn to manipulate the emotions of others. I for one also think that is how he 'darkened' Imoen, through various mental horrors more than through physical torture.

Again, I see this as a matter of interpretation. Irenicus tells CHARNAME that he does not know what visions CHARNAME experienced durring the process, and CHARNAME is not driven mad. It would be just as valid to say that Irenicus drove Imoen mad as an unintended side effect as he searched for an effective magical ritual to extract her soul, and that he had no more need for insight into the verbal manipulation of human emotion than a pharmacologist or surgeon.

[Laufey]

I would say that in fine tuning the 'Soul Extraction Process', it's pretty much necessary for him to learn to manipulate the emotions of others. I for one also think that is how he 'darkened' Imoen, through various mental horrors more than through physical torture.

Again, I see this as a matter of interpretation. Irenicus tells CHARNAME that he does not know what visions CHARNAME experienced durring the process, and CHARNAME is not driven mad. It would be just as valid to say that Irenicus drove Imoen mad as an unintended side effect as he searched for an effective magical ritual to extract her soul, and that he had no more need for insight into the verbal manipulation of human emotion than a pharmacologist or surgeon.

As you say - it is up for interpretation, as are most of the elements included. But when I spoke of Imoen, I didn't mean the 'soul extraction' itself, I meant the things he did before that, such as dissecting Khalid in front of her. He mentions having to show her some very dark things in order to get what he wanted, and that was what I think was mental torment, first and foremost.

[fallen_demon]

[quote name='dorotea' date='May 30 2004, 12:13 PM']They should be held responsible indeed, it is just their punishment should not IMHO be endless physical torture without relief, since I dont bevieve that either victim or the relatives get much satisfaction from that, and if they do - they become corrupted by this satisfaction[/quote]
Agreed, what i said was a response to Laufy's answer to my question about an evil pc who rejects acension.
[QUOTE] I see, my past disagrements with this mod were based on my view of redemption and i was never sure what you meant before. Your definition, while of course different from mine, is much more fitting for the story and i greatly look foward to how it will play out.

[BobTokyo]

As you say - it is up for interpretation, as are most of the elements included. But when I spoke of Imoen, I didn't mean the 'soul extraction' itself, I meant the things he did before that, such as dissecting Khalid in front of her. He mentions having to show her some very dark things in order to get what he wanted, and that was what I think was mental torment, first and foremost.

Even more interpretation.

I saw that as part of his insanity, not as the work of a skilled manipulator.

I do see how you can view him as a skilled manipulator; I just don't share that view.

[Kish]

he's old, older than all NPC:s except perhaps Viconia

Well, let's see. He was a young elf, then he was cursed to "a life no longer than a human's." I'd agree he's older than any other party-joinable except Viconia, since the only other elf is Aerie, but I'd also say he's much less than half Viconia's age. It's also worth noting that by his own word, he's becoming senile and needs to put his thoughts in writing to organize them.

[Laufey]

he's old, older than all NPC:s except perhaps Viconia

Well, let's see. He was a young elf, then he was cursed to "a life no longer than a human's." I'd agree he's older than any other party-joinable except Viconia, since the only other elf is Aerie, but I'd also say he's much less than half Viconia's age. It's also worth noting that by his own word, he's becoming senile and needs to put his thoughts in writing to organize them.

I'm not sure exactly how old Viconia is supposed to be, so can't really comment. I believe though, that even a young elf must have plenty of experience to draw upon, having lived at least a couple of hundred years. Also, the 'senility', no matter how one interprets its effect on him in the days before the second attack on Suldanesselar, doesn't necessarily affect him in the same way now, after his theft of CHARNAME's soul (with resulting consequences.

[Arcalian]

"By the way I disagree with Arcalian on the matter of both Jon and Sarevok 'not wanting' to be redeemed...."

Of course you do, otherwise you wouldn't have written the mod, now wouldya?

I just want to reiterate that NO disrespect to you or Lord E was intended.