89 replies to this topic

[Sharess]

Well, it is good to see this thread bustling along.

Thank you for the links Domi. They were of little help but I do truly appreciate the effort.

I'm glad you dropped in Dorotea. The story theme you suggest is intriguing, but my Lore skills are not up to that challenge. I am rather capable of exploring human sexuality however. Although, based on the NPC's stats, one also has to wonder just how much she's capable of from an intellectual standpoint. If I attribute too much to 'it just comes naturally', it will loose the realists and realism that I want to maintain.

Melisah: I have given the matter more consideration. While you are correct that men can be as fickle, I wonder if the NPC would have to be half-elven else he be too old for some PC's to bother with. Girls do mature faster than boys; yes, there are exceptions, but is still the general rule. The obvious 'I am female, and therefore can speak from that perspective, as well as to a potential female or male mate' reason is a stronger consideration. While I could also speak from the male perspective, I'd rather 'play' a masculine female than an effeminate male. Ultimately, the strongest arguement is that I don't think I could do a male role enough justice given the nature of this mod.

A thought occured to me: Because of the nature of this mod I wonder just how hard I would have to work to see that the character wasn't 'one-sided'. The thought is provoked mainly by the reactions and labels that Viconia gets, based on her nature and race. While it is true, that she is drow and, based on their treatment of sex and indulgence in orgies, it's understandable how some could begin the virgin game and think she's slutty, I still wonder how she would be percieved were she anything but drow given the same written lines. My character will most probably surpass Viconia in her conversations relating to sex. Some people are still content to call Viconia a whore when that is literally not what she is. Might this NPC easily fall into the same catergory, regardless of alternate plots, soley because she speaks openly and candidly of sex? I won't even begin to discuss the way men and women are put in completely different categories based soley on gender when dealing with the act of sex. (A woman sleeps with 2 men in one week and she's a slut; a man sleeps with 2 women in one night and he's a stud, 2 women in a week and he's sowing his oats or something equally sexist.)

The other thought that occured to me: I do want the PC and NPC to have some intellectual sexual discussions. To clarify: If the PC were to talk to Madame Nin or a prostitute, depending or the stage and direction of the relationship, my NPC would interrupt with a discussion -- yes, interrupt, to set up some guidelines, and share beliefs -- on just what sexual intercourse, if that is what they were planning, means to the PC. The PC would have the choice of 1. attributing to a one-night stand, 2. a necessary act because they're lonely, or 3. x and z. That 'they didn't know what they were doing', wouldn't exist.
--If you answer 1 and you are committed to her, you'll get dialogue where she explains how she's engaged in that kind of sex and understands the want that goes with it, but knows herself well enough that it would bother her if you slept with someone else. If you go through with the act, and are comitted to her, it will (eventually) kill the relationship. If you are not committed to her, there will be some type of mixed banter. Likewise, she will continue to flirt with people (regardless of the level of involvement) and you'll have the opportunity (if you choose) to ask her to stop.
--If 2, she'll ask about pregnancy ...or something, anything.
Both will lead to a discussion of how sex is a powerful act. Much more than a means to an end -- if one wanted orgasm you'd only need yourself -- but for it to be more than masterbation it must involved people who care for each other and, unless lucky, have praticed with each other a few times to be truly able to satisfy each other. It'll get deeper and more poetic or erotic than that, but that's a rough draft of it.

I think these types of conversations are well within her stats. Anything too philosophical would be unrealistic, unless she were quoting from a book. Then, while I would love for it to be more, it is also limited by my own knowledge and abilities. I hope this doesn't scare you intellectuals away -- I'm really enjoying the reading. I am also realistic enough to know that this will be a while in the writing so I will surely learn a few things in that time to help flavor the storyline. I have already given myself research assignments, of a sort. Any suggestions from the audience for reading material?

I would also like dialogue to matter and stats will really come into play here - start down a path and you might wind up with a dead relationship because you're too dim or dull. They will appear, or not, based on charisma (lying or flirting), intelligence and wisdom (just how well your PC can communicate). Points will be assigned based on responses. This sounds like it's getting tricky; it's probably tricky technically, but I know it can be done if one has the patience to write it and code it.

I'm also dabbling with the idea of a tragedy.

A question: Am I correct in believing that the Romans and other such civilizations do not exist in the FR?

[Melisah]

Like I said, go with your vision and do it up however you think it should be done. I'm sure it'll prove interesting and I would definitly play it, male or female.

[BobTokyo]

No Romans in the realms, but if Solafein has no trouble getting hold of poetry from Earth then your NPC can easily get her hands on a book or two of Roman history. Alternatively, substitute the word "elf" for "Roman" and the name of an ancient elven city for "Rome". There may also be an equivelant; maybe someone with serious realms lore can suggest it.

I wouldn't worry about her being labled if I were you, though it might be worth a dialog in-game. Out of game that kind of nonsense will fly around no matter what you do; the only answer is to stay on-task and learn which posts to skip.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

**Warning, mild spoilers for NWN: Hordes of the Underdark, the Return of the Archwizards trilogy of Realms books, and the Baldur's Gate novel trio are contained within this message.**

Please... While the Realms do have some areas that bear a remarkable resemblance to several parts of our world, Abeir-Toril is not Earth.

Here is what Ed Greenwood himself had to say about sexuality in the Realms (you'll have to scroll down - but it's the bit specifically addressing me), and here is another post from Ed (the second one on the page) about marriage, including religiously sanctioned one night stands.

Now, before you all go "pooh pooh, isn't that randy old goat Elminster this guy's mary sue (or is that gary stu?) and therefore he's incapable of making a comment, because he's just this horny old guy?" You also need to remember that Ed Greenwood is the guy who made the Realms in the first place!

TSR, WotC, and now Hasbro have had rather strict "Family Friendly" policies (the latter being the strictest), which means that aspect of the Realms has been scrupulously kept out of print - though sometimes this gets by-passed by particularly clever writers. So you'll probably never see an openly gay, bi, lesbian, or polyamorus person in print, even though there should be. (There are four exceptions I can think of off the top of my head, 1) The description of Elversult in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pg143), for an example of "clever" (blatant IMHO!) wording... Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklin, both women. At the time the FRCS first came out, Sean K Reynolds on the Realms-L list would not comment beyond "read it however you want"; 2) The implied polygamous relationship at the end of the Return of the Archwizards series... I don't know how they missed that one; 3) The portrayal of Imoen in (godawful) Philip Athans and (not-so-godawful-but-still-fairly-painful) Drew Karpyshyn's Baldur's Gate trio of books; 4) the implied polygamous relationship at the end of Hordes of the Underdark if the male PC has romanced both Nathyrra and Aribeth.)

The fact of the matter is, Abeir-Toril is nothing like Earth. For a start, they don't have certian real life religions that have dominated Earth society for thousands of years... Instead they have such deities as Sune, who is the goddess of passion, beauty and love... Lliira, the godess of joy, festivals, and dancing. The original party deity! Sharess, who is the goddess of sensual pleasures, festhalls (a nice way of saying brothels), and patroness of courtesans (a nice way of saying prostitutes)... In fact, Sharess's main temple is in Calimport - make of that what you will!

Ironically enough, Zandilar is also another name for Sharess... Zandilar was a Yuirwood deity, worshiped by elves who lived there long ago. She was kind of like a more pleasure centered love deity, very fickle... At one point, these deities were at war with the drow gods, and they were loosing. So in an attempt to help distract Vhaeraun, Zandilar went to him and tried to seduce him. Unfortunately he saw through her ploy and was able to subdue her. He was about to absorb her when Bast came along, and basically together Zandilar and Bast were able to fight him off. Unfortunately she had been severely weakened in the battle, and basically allowed Bast to absorb the last of her divinity... (Zandilar is not the first deity Bast/Sharess has absorbed, by the way)... This being done, Bast continued on hspellholdstudios.neter way, having a strong bout of wanderlust... At some point she came under the sway of Shar, and people started to equate her to the Harbinger of Shar... and started to call her Sharess accordingly. Sharess became darker and she seemed to loose some kind of spark that had been in her, in many ways she was slowly fading. Eventually she would have become just another aspect of Shar (absorbed by the greater power), but then the Time of Troubles occured. Sharess took on the Pasha's favorite concubine as her Avatar and partied hard... Until Shar arrived, fresh from fighting her sister Selune in Waterdeep. As she was about to absorb Sharess once and for all, Sune arrived and poured a goblet of water over Sharess. The water in the goblet had come from the Evergold (a magical fountian that is shared by Sune, Aphrodite, and Hanali Celanil among other beauty/love deities), and it seemed to restore the joy and beauty Sharess had lost in her time under Shar's sway. Sharess was finally able to be rid of the taint of Shar, and has made quite a come back as far as popularity is concerned.

Well... I guess that doesn't have much to say about the proposed mod, and more to say of the treatment of sex and sexuality in the Realms (and the history of Zandilar and Sharess)... I must say I like the idea of this mod.

[jester]

As much as I like your points, Hasbro,WotC and TSR are mostly about sales( in that order). They won't go eminem on their customer's mothers and spoil them (the sales not the kids per se), but you and Ed are right.

Edited by jester, 16 April 2004 - 05:29 AM.

[BobTokyo]

Here is what Ed Greenwood himself had to say about sexuality in the Realms (you'll have to scroll down - but it's the bit specifically addressing me), and here is another post from Ed (the second one on the page) about marriage, including religiously sanctioned one night stands.

Now, before you all go "pooh pooh, isn't that randy old goat Elminster this guy's mary sue (or is that gary stu?) and therefore he's incapable of making a comment, because he's just this horny old guy?" You also need to remember that Ed Greenwood is the guy who made the Realms in the first place!

TSR, WotC, and now Hasbro have had rather strict "Family Friendly" policies (the latter being the strictest), which means that aspect of the Realms has been scrupulously kept out of print - though sometimes this gets by-passed by particularly clever writers.

Thanks for posting the links; I'd read this and similar stuff from Ed years ago, but I didn't know where they were posted.

It's important to remember that many of the ideas on sex and relationships that were originally built into the realms were those of the humanist 60s and 70s, the same ideas explored by Heinlein or Farmer. We may be going through a fairly conservative, Christian period now in America (less so in Europe and Asia), but that was not the sensibility on which this particular fictional world was conceived.

Of course, as a commercially owned collective fictional world it can officially be more or less whatever the current owners want it to be, and as players and participants we can re-interpret it as we like.

[Sharess]

Ah, Zandilar. (broad smile) Thank you for supplying me with such a feast (of knowledge, of course).

[Bren]

The main character is bi-sexual; built for both, and for most possibilities...Now, what do you all think?

Hi Sharess

Read the other posts and sounds like an interesting NPC. Have any other details on her you would like to share?

Built for both...Very interesting indeed.

[Grim Squeaker]

The main character is bi-sexual; built for both, and for most possibilities...Now, what do you all think?

Hi Sharess

Read the other posts and sounds like an interesting NPC. Have any other details on her you would like to share?

Built for both...Very interesting indeed.

Isn't it interesting that the majority of BG2 female NPCs have either been depicted as bisexual or lesbian in fan-fic or created as sexually agressive bi- or lesbian women by modders, yet poor Minsc, Korgan and Jan are never depicted as randy gay men on the make?

...and in other news, Pandora's Box has been opened...

[Zandilar]

Heya,

Isn't it interesting that the majority of BG2 female NPCs have either been depicted as bisexual or lesbian in fan-fic or created as sexually agressive bi- or lesbian women by modders, yet poor Minsc, Korgan and Jan are never depicted as randy gay men on the make?

Oh it IS very interesting, actually. Did you know that the majority of slash authors are women? I am not sure if this also applies to femmeslash, which is a good deal rarer than just straight slash.

However, those characters that tend to get slashed are the "handsome" ones... I could see Anomen and Keldorn subject to slashing... Interesting that you didn't mention either of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the majority of modders be male? This might be a factor.

Oh well, interesting thoughts.

[BobTokyo]

Heya,

Isn't it interesting that the majority of BG2 female NPCs have either been depicted as bisexual or lesbian in fan-fic or created as sexually agressive bi- or lesbian women by modders, yet poor Minsc, Korgan and Jan are never depicted as randy gay men on the make?

Oh it IS very interesting, actually. Did you know that the majority of slash authors are women? I am not sure if this also applies to femmeslash, which is a good deal rarer than just straight slash.

However, those characters that tend to get slashed are the "handsome" ones... I could see Anomen and Keldorn subject to slashing... Interesting that you didn't mention either of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the majority of modders be male? This might be a factor.

Oh well, interesting thoughts.

I was poking fun at yet another bisexual female NPC; no harm intended. B)

Of course I didn't mention the attractive male NPCs; Heck, I once posted a short PG rated Haer Dalis / Anomen slash myself.

But darn it, the ugly male NPCs need love too!

[Sharess]

However, those characters that tend to get slashed are the "handsome" ones... I could see Anomen and Keldorn subject to slashing... Interesting that you didn't mention either of them.

Anomen and Keldorn are slashed, but I'm not so sure it's because they are handsome. I sometimes wonder if the authors think these characters might actually be homosexual based soley on their mannerisms. Regardless of the creative process involved, what point is there to write slash about the ugly? You want the reader to feel anything other than something ranging from discomfort to revulsion, right? This reasoning would, therefore, certainly preclude Jan, and Minsc is plainly too dim -- it would be truly distasteful to involve him. Korgan, I suppose, would be the only exception of the list, but that would only be because he swings to the other extreme - the ultra-macho.

There should always be a slight hint of truth or pre-judging, else slash is nothing -- It just falls flat. I, personally, have never understood slash; for the most part, it is crude and terribly unsatisfying.

What is femme slash? Women writing lesbians? It wouldn't occur for the same reason men don't write homosexual males.

Isn't it interesting that the majority of BG2 female NPCs have either been depicted as bisexual or lesbian in fan-fic or created as sexually agressive bi- or lesbian women by modders.

I think this would be based on the person who created the character or generated the story; and, quite possibly, how they picture themselves or their ideal sexual partner (Or, in the case of men, their fanatasy). To be fair, there is only one gay female NPC, that I know of, and that would be Chloe -- whom I have not played to completion. Imoen is hardly sexually aggressive. So I'm not quite sure what it is you are trying to say or hint at; do continue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the majority of modders be male? This might be a factor.

They may be indeed. But they are certainly more than a minority these days. A head count around these various forums would give you an idea.

[jester]

I would not call either Valygar or Keldorn handsome - personal opinion only, please, no need to argue about that.

You want the reader to feel anything other than something ranging from discomfort to revulsion, right? This reasoning would, therefore, certainly preclude Jan

Any GF would have your hide for this reasoning in real life, you superficial twits, if you were a man. If you cannot see romance but for the fair and beautiful (twens I must ad from the age discussion ), another point for those visitors (ok, would be just me I guess). Another redundancy for RL. hehe Then again according to the RL spillover rule set forth here (even if only implied under cover), Minsc should be a good stud.

[BobTokyo]

What is femme slash? Women writing lesbians? It wouldn't occur for the same reason men don't write homosexual males.

My attempts at serious fiction have included homosexual males, as have a few of my less serious pieces (I don't write erotica). Of straight male authors of Science Fiction and Fantasy, I can recall sexually active gay male character treated well by Robert Heinlein, Jack L. Chalker, Philip Jose Farmer, and others. The point being, male authors do include gay male characters when the story calls for it, both in erotic and mainstream fiction.

So I'm not quite sure what it is you are trying to say or hint at; do continue.

I was teasing; no hostility was intended.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

The original male NPCs from BG2 I have seen called gay/bisexual or had associated slash fiction were Anomen, Haer'Dalis, Valygar and Keldorn. From modded - Solaufein and Kelsey. I would not call either Valygar or Keldorn handsome - personal opinion only, please, no need to argue about that.

Oh, I put "handsome" in inverted commas for a reason. There does seem to be a pattern to the types of males who are slashed. Usually they're the most desirable to their female authors for one reason or other.

What is femme slash? Women writing lesbians? It wouldn't occur for the same reason men don't write homosexual males.

Technically the term "slash" only refers to m/m pairings. Femmeslash (also femslash) is used to distinguish f/f.

Oddly enough, I think the authors of slash in general are women - slash or femmeslash... This might have something to do with the fact that good slash (IMHO) generally deals with relationships, and not just smut.

My attempts at serious fiction have included homosexual males, as have a few of my less serious pieces (I don't write erotica). Of straight male authors of Science Fiction and Fantasy, I can recall sexually active gay male character treated well by Robert Heinlein, Jack L. Chalker, Philip Jose Farmer, and others. The point being, male authors do include gay male characters when the story calls for it, both in erotic and mainstream fiction.

I write erotica when the mood moves me, I just don't write about men (and I'm female if you hadn't guessed, and lesbian). There are always exceptions, I was merely noting that the majority of slash seems to be written by women. This isn't to say that males couldn't write Slash, just that they don't do it very often.

At any rate, I wasn't talking about professional mainstream fiction or erotica... Slash (in general) grew out of Fanfiction. By it's very definition, all slash is amateur -

"Taking two MALE characters, from a television series, movie, comic, anime, book, etc., and "pairing" them together, usually for sexual acts." (from UrbanDictionary.com)

"Slash fiction is fan fiction, describing homosexual pairings between media characters, often in explicit detail, and very frequently outside the canon of the source. The name arises from the use of the "/" character in phrases such as "Kirk/Spock" to describe the stories. ("Kirk/Spock" is widely thought to be the first type of slash fiction, first appearing in the 1970s in Star Trek fanzines.)" (From Wikipedia)

I don't exactly see stories written about copyrighted and/or trademarked characters being published professionally, except without express permission of the owners of the copyright and/or trademark... (And usually they have creative control over what the characters may or may not do, and homosexuality isn't exactly accepted... yet.)