87 replies to this topic

[Gospel]

Rathwellin the Bard, on Sep 1 2002, 03:04 AM, said:

Well they do disable your ability to get to your pocket plane (buggy in this version but worked on in the next) & as I understand it they are reducing the odds of getting the "rest" option from the wish spell.

That's what I meant, sir ^_^

I was wondering why those were disabled, if resting in the dungeon was removed for roleplaying reasons :D

[Quitch]

Well, it's a wish barred by AD&D rules, it's a total cheese fest what with quick save (so you reload till you get it), but mainly it's because you cannot balance a mod with that spell present.

Either you create a situation where every battle can kill the player, thus challenging the wishers but stopping non-wishers from playing, or you make it so the non-wisher can win battles, thus making the entire thing a push over for people with wish.

The idea is you should come prepared, and for the first time ever will actually need to think about whether you can afford to let loose your killer spell or ability.

You're supposed to be a nigh on invincible god, but with quick save, unlimited resting and a cheesy wish, this has hardly been a challenge.

Wishes are random, so we've simply introduced a quest random factor. You can wish and wish but it never becomes an option... guess you just get really unlucky. Shucks.

[Gospel]

Saving and reloading and saving and reloading.... to take a nap? ?:)

Yikes! :D

*stands on his hindpaws!* Me'sa pathetic when it comes to tactics, though *falls on his back* If Starcraft had a difficulty level for blind fish, I'd still never finish it :D

Supa scawy sounding-ish. *purrs* ^_^

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Oh I agree Gospel. At least I THINK I do.

When faced with sleep restrictions I usually save & reload until I get an uninterruped sleep. Ditto for the wish. Perfecty willing to reload for quite a while until I get the rest wish.

I do try to play without sleeping much these days, but if I decided that my party does need to rest then I will reload until I get it. Somehow I don't expect that this behavior is all that unusual based on other posts I've seen.

Prior to Kelsey and Tashia multiple shots at a rest wish were rare unless playing a PC sorcerer ... and even then you had to have a high wis natually or via potion which was a limiting factor. Without these mods you are not likely to see wish used too much in many parties.

Quitch, you also don't mention that Project Image, Similarcum, and Limited Wish can all be used to extend spellcasting and item use as well. Are these cheesy? I think so, but they are popular and widely used. Are you going to try to nerf these too for "balance?"

Oh and while you are at it 10th level spells are not per AD&D rules why don't you disable those too? And that silly greater whirlwind fighter thing, that's not AD&D either why isn't it nerfed in RtW?

I get your point about resting Quitch, I trust you get mine.

[Quitch]

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When faced with sleep restrictions I usually save & reload until I get an uninterruped sleep. Ditto for the wish. Perfecty willing to reload for quite a while until I get the rest wish.

Exactly.

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Without these mods you are not likely to see wish used too much in many parties.

Then not many people will ever know.

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Quitch, you also don't mention that Project Image, Similarcum, and Limited Wish can all be used to extend spellcasting and item use as well. Are these cheesy? I think so, but they are popular and widely used. Are you going to try to nerf these too for "balance?"

No, but then I never believed you should set the murderers free simply because you couldn't catch them all.

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Oh and while you are at it 10th level spells are not per AD&D rules why don't you disable those too? And that silly greater whirlwind fighter thing, that's not AD&D either why isn't it nerfed in RtW?

I get your point about resting Quitch, I trust you get mine.

Your point would have relevance were black and white the only colours.


In some bad news, while it looked like we might get out the latest Beta bang on target, the guy who was translating the 84 page, 33 000 word Dasypus talk into .d format has managed to wipe the .d, and so had to start again. He leaves for two months tomorrow, so I now have another .d to do, and it is a *big* .d.

[Cuv]

Rathwellin the Bard, on Sep 1 2002, 02:27 PM, said:

Quitch, you also don't mention that Project Image, Similarcum, and Limited Wish can all be used to extend spellcasting and item use as well. Are these cheesy? I think so, but they are popular and widely used. Are you going to try to nerf these too for "balance?"

Oh and while you are at it 10th level spells are not per AD&D rules why don't you disable those too? And that silly greater whirlwind fighter thing, that's not AD&D either why isn't it nerfed in RtW?

I get your point about resting Quitch, I trust you get mine.

I dont think Project Image, Sim and Limited Wish are cheesy at all.... they are within the AD&D rules. A 'true' Wish IS something special and should not be something you can memorize over and over again... that is like wishing for extra wishes... which is against the rules:p Wish is something that is granted by a powerful being (usually a Djinni or god). Having it in your spell memorization is severly unbalancing to the game.

Here's the deal with why the pocket plane is disabled: Dasypus has used Wish to seal the dungeon. His ring grants great power... the whole complex is totally sealed. He is also using the ring of wishes to help further his plans against the Order and becoming a Dracolich. Do you think players will require a better explanation of this? Wish is not to be taken lightly.... but Bioware adding it to the 10th level arsenal has done just that.

Personally, I dont care if people use Wish to rest... but I am in the minority on this topic:p

I dont think anything is cheesy and unbalancing IF the enemies can do it too:) I would suggest leaving in the Wish resting option, but also giving Vidar, King Strohm and Dasypus a Wish also to rest during battle and regain ALL their spells. How does that sound for balance?

Cuv

[Quitch]

Terrible.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

First I want to apologize.

Somehow Quitch I get myself all pissed off when I read some of your posts. And I do feel a bit silly arguing about something I really feel only moderately about.

That said I really did like Cuv suggestion. I actually got a good laugh out of it. One of the funniest moments in ToB is the "Bondari Reloads." We get a good laugh because we recognize the game parodying something that we as gamers do. It is fun when the game pulls our own tricks on us. So I could see it being fair and fun if either Dasypus or Strohm were to pull this. It would make the battle fairly legendary in some respects and that might be a good thing. Now giving it to all three is a bit much, but having one special battle like this could be really cool IMO.

This will be my last post about the sleep thing unless one of you guys specifically asks for my input on it. I am going to stick with my guns though. My current party that I'm taking through is having a much easier time so far. True I've been through once will make it easier, but this party is much more fighter heavy where my first one was mage heavy. So far I've seen opportunities for fighter types to shine in RtW with all the combat. Thieves get a real chance to make a difference here with the placements of some of the traps with regards to fights. Clerics get to shine against the Wights and undead Beholders which they can chunk or enslave (though why it should be easier to chunk a Spectral Gauth than a Vampire I can't fathom). But mages and druids have a much harder time, getting to act mostly as support in a few fights. RtW seems heavily biased against them as is and restricting rest only makes it worse. I will leave it at that.

I am sorry about the coding and the delays.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Current party:

Talion - Fighter 7 / Shapeshifter Druid 27 (used SK to give the 2nd class a kit)
Sarevok - Fighter 27
Minsc - Ranger 29
Tashia - Sorcerer 26
Imoen - Thief 7 / Mage 25
Viconia - Cleric 35 (SK modified to N alignment)

This party went through SoA, Grommy, Yaga Shura, and WK before going to RtW & has most of the good stuff. Tashia does have wish, but I didn't pack any potions to boost her wisdom.

[Gospel]

Rathwellin the Bard, on Sep 2 2002, 02:21 AM, said:

It is fun when the game pulls our own tricks on us.

"Our", sir? :)

It's not fun when they pull player tricks on you that you've never used! Yikes! :D

[Quitch]

Biased against mages? This is nonsense. We are using the AD&D system, now if you have a problem, it is with that. No one is going to tell me, without gales of laughter from my end, that resting in the middle of a hostile dungeon is something that anyone would get away with.

Then it comes down to the fact that AD&D specifically says that the rest wish IS NOT ALLOWED. So for this dungeon, it doesn't happen.

But, no, this isn't common sense, this is bias against mages... oh yes...

Beholder levels are probably an oversight, and I suspect some MRs are higher than they should be. Not to mention that there will likely be less monsters in the future... at least I hope so.

[Dyara]

One thing about the party resting option...

I think it should be impossible to sleep between vampires like sleeping in your own bed, but in real life perhaps only one half of the party sleeps (the wizards and clerics) and the other half guards them. So resting whereever you want isn´t very AD&D like but no possibility to rest seems to me the same.

RtW offers the possibility to free some knights and send them to the entrance. I think they could guard the party if they are resting there. At least the player tells a lot of NPCs that it´s save there .
We don´t have to tell the players about this, so they have to discover it themselves. The entrance is far away from the most RtW locations so noone will use this option over and over again.

Just a suggestion...

[Gospel]

Dyara, on Sep 2 2002, 12:21 PM, said:

One thing about the party resting option...

I think it should be impossible to sleep between vampires like sleeping in your own bed, but in real life perhaps only one half of the party sleeps (the wizards and clerics) and the other half guards them. So resting whereever you want isn´t very AD&D like but no possibility to rest seems to me the same.

RtW offers the possibility to free some knights and send them to the entrance. I think they could guard the party if they are resting there. At least the player tells a lot of NPCs that it´s save there ;).
We don´t have to tell the players about this, so they have to discover it themselves. The entrance is far away from the most RtW locations so noone will use this option over and over again.

Just a suggestion...

But methinks the problem isn't "Waking up alive", ma'am... I think the problem is getting sleep at all. :D

It would be hard for me to sleep in my bed if my teddy bears and cat posters were fighting off vampires :D

Likewise for my party ^_^

[Dyara]

Gospel, on Sep 2 2002, 02:32 PM, said:

But methinks the problem isn't "Waking up alive", ma'am... I think the problem is getting sleep at all.

It would be hard for me to sleep in my bed if my teddy bears and cat posters were fighting off vampires

Likewise for my party

Hmmm... perhaps if your teddy and your cat posters are strong enough then there won´t be any vampires spawning in ?

[Gospel]

Dyara, on Sep 2 2002, 01:42 PM, said:

Hmmm... perhaps if your teddy and your cat posters are strong enough then there won´t be any vampires spawning in :D ?

But there would still be fighting noises, ma'am! :D

Those can be distracting! :)

[Dyara]

Some cotton to put in your ears might help ...

[Gospel]

Dyara, on Sep 2 2002, 03:25 PM, said:

Some cotton to put in your ears might help :P ...

Would my party have cotton, ma'am? ?:)

Was it even invented, in Faerun? ?:D

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I've just finished killing Dasy with my current group. Got him on the first try. Minsc, Tashia, and Imoen were all petrified & Minsc was chunked after that. Vic and Sarevok were killed. I managed to raise Vic in the middle of the fight & she was able to restore Tashia. Along with some summoned monsters Dasy went down.

I've also faced Infernal Guards with this group & find things slighly easier. Now knowing about the scripting issue with Maze I send summoned fodder in first & this has reduced the problems somewhat. This is not a strategy I normally use, but does work somewhat. Damage is still high. Minsc and Sarevok were both killed in my first encounter with them.

I'm not running into quite as many vampire scripting issue this time ... or at least they are less apparent. The entire party is immune to level drain so I'm able to move throug them fairly fast.

I haven't fully tested resting yet, but was able to sleep unmolested in the demi-litch tomb after clearing it. Speaking of which he only used imprison once as I have previously reported. 4 party members were protected, but it was the unprotected Sarevok who took him out. Everyone in RtW seems to target Minsc. He has been mazed, imprisoned, killed, & otherwise picked upon more than twice as many as any other party member.

I will be doing the Dasy fight another time or two, testing resting, and then doing King T's area next.

[Quitch]

Dyara, on Sep 2 2002, 12:21 PM, said:

I think it should be impossible to sleep between vampires like sleeping in your own bed, but in real life perhaps only one half of the party sleeps (the wizards and clerics) and the other half guards them. So resting whereever you want isn´t very AD&D like but no possibility to rest seems to me the same.

RtW offers the possibility to free some knights and send them to the entrance. I think they could guard the party if they are resting there. At least the player tells a lot of NPCs that it´s save there .
We don´t have to tell the players about this, so they have to discover it themselves. The entrance is far away from the most RtW locations so noone will use this option over and over again.

Considering the party wakes up to face the foe, I suspect that there must be some kind of watch system in place (solo? Hah!). Also, I think you'll find four hours passes when sleep is interrupted. Any kind of interruption would stop spells being memorised...

I don't think a bunch of paladins who have been hounded, in terror and dominated, are really in good enough condition to guard anyone...

There will be some rest areas... since vamps respawn you're going to have to try and press on from one to the next. How this is going to work I leave to Cuv. Until he has implemented it that is, then I intend to interfere.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Super odd error.

I was fighting Dasy & was well into things when the screen went black. I immidiately paused & moved the map around to find my characters. What I found was that the map had changed to the pocket plane.

The party was still fighting Dasy (those who were left that is) & I couldn't control them at all. Dasy had just cast Lithify (side note I had just cast Insect Swarm successfully on him shortly before & I've seen him get this off while under the effects of acid arrow & other spells that normally kill spellcasting on foes ... fustrating).