Animation-weapon consistency
#1
Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:53 AM
- Sailors use fists only
- Pirates use two blades (such as a longsword or scimitar and dagger)
- Shadow thieves use a single blade (long- or shortsword)
- Male drow (not the elf animation) use what - a drow lance? (could be a drow two-handed sword but there isn't such a thing that I know of)
- Female drow (not the elf animation) use a drow flail
- Amnish soldiers use a spear
- Robed Irenicus (aka "Hula wizard") uses a staff
I think missile weapons would be inappropriate on any of these, with the possible exception of darts or throwing daggers for those who don't have two-handed weapons.
Has no one else noticed such inconsistencies? In the vanilla game even, a lot of male drow get flails, some female drow get swords, shadow thieves get crossbows and Amnish soldiers get bows and swords. It must look pretty stupid to have someone wielding a spear shooting arrows at you, no?
Any thoughts or other animations like this we should look at?
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#2
Posted 05 July 2010 - 02:44 PM
Any thoughts or other animations like this we should look at?
- MINOTAUR (MMIN) have an axe animation, but there are a few with X-bows.
- GITHYANKI (MGIT) have 1Hsword and 2Hsword animations, but some also use Spears, Morning Stars, and Quarterstaffs.
- OGRE (MOGR) have mourning star animations, but also use Clubs, 1Hswords, 2Hswords, Spears, and one even has a Composite Long Bow
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart-arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!"
--<CHARNAME> to Portalbendarwinden
--------------------
___________Old pen and paper modules of the 70s and 80s.___________
#3
Posted 05 July 2010 - 04:12 PM
Yes - can you see if there are any others?This the type of thing you were interested in?
Looking over the IWD animations in the readme, I see a handful more:
- Lizard kings have tridents
- Svirfneblin_axes have pickaxes (already dealt with in Aurora)
- Goblin_axes and captains have axes (need to double check these)
- Goblin archers have bows
- Goblin worgriders have spears
- Barbarians (3 types - club, hammer and staff)
- Animated plates have swords or axes
- Genies have scimitars
- Neo-orog shaman has flail and shield
- Cambions and alu-fiends (Isair and Madae) already dealt with (scimitars and morning star)
- Half-dragons have two-handed swords
- Verbeeg has spear and shield
- Mariliths and Belhifet have double scimitar-like weapons
- Frost giant has giant axe
I mainly just went through the N-series animations in BG2, so I guess we should go through the rest of the M-animations.
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"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle
#4
Posted 06 July 2010 - 09:17 PM
From BGII:
- DEATH_KNIGHT (MDKN) has a 2Hsword
- DRIZZT (UDRZ) has 2 scimitars ()
- ETTIN (METN) has a club
- OGRE_HALF (MOGH) has a 1Hsword
- OGRE_MAGE (MOGM) has a 1Hsword that has its own animation
- SALAMANDER (MSAL) has a spear
- SALAMANDER2 (MSA2) has a spear
- SAREVOK (USAR) has a 1Hsword
- SHADOW_THIEF (NSHD) has a 1Hsword (too long to be a dagger) in one hand
- Bugbear (MBUG) has large spiked mace \ mourning star
- Bugbear Captain (MBU2) has large spiked mace \ mourning star
- Goblin Shaman (MGOC) has quarterstaff
- Yuan Ti, Halfbreed (MYUH) has scimitar
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart-arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!"
--<CHARNAME> to Portalbendarwinden
--------------------
___________Old pen and paper modules of the 70s and 80s.___________
#5
Posted 07 July 2010 - 08:15 PM
There are some odd weapons that don't exist though, like the lizard king trident and the odd double-sided crescent staff that lizardmen (and the Melissan animation MMEL actually) can have. Don't suppose you'd care to do some BAMs for those, especially since CA uses the same animations?
Any idea what the male drow weapon is supposed to be? It looks like a lance, but swings like a sword, and is at least as large as a bastard and most probably a two-handed sword (definitely larger than a drow longsword anyway, which is the only one that I see in the game).
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"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle
#6
Posted 07 July 2010 - 09:38 PM
This is the closest thing I can find:Any idea what the male drow weapon is supposed to be? It looks like a lance, but swings like a sword, and is at least as large as a bastard and most probably a two-handed sword (definitely larger than a drow longsword anyway, which is the only one that I see in the game).
I found it here.
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart-arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself perfectly CLEAR?!"
--<CHARNAME> to Portalbendarwinden
--------------------
___________Old pen and paper modules of the 70s and 80s.___________
#7
Posted 07 July 2010 - 10:00 PM
I Ride for the King!
a.k.a. Chev
#8
Posted 08 July 2010 - 03:26 AM
Heh... some sort of Kara-Turan drow? I think I figured it out...This is the closest thing I can find:Any idea what the male drow weapon is supposed to be? It looks like a lance, but swings like a sword, and is at least as large as a bastard and most probably a two-handed sword (definitely larger than a drow longsword anyway, which is the only one that I see in the game).
It is a Drow Fishing Rod +2, +4 vs. Kuo-Toa...
*crickets chirping*
Eh, whatever...
I'm not really talking about adding droppable giant's clubs, because yes, the PC wouldn't be able to use them (not as normal clubs anyway). But it's definitely a bit too much for a creature who clearly is wielding a club to be inflicting damage with, and dropping, say, a sword. The real issue (what was reported in the PS:T post I linked initially) is creatures with bows and arrows who clearly don't have them - whose animations don't support them. They should instead have some sort of throwing weapon, if that would be believable.In BG2 I think the artists took too many liberties with animations. I don't think we need to compound the error by adding weapons that are not standard to their type (like the Drow). Also adding weapon types that PC & NPCs can't use (a giant's club even if you are strong enough it would be too unbalanced) or don't have proficiencies for them.
I think lizard king tridents would be ok (usuable as spears) except that PC animations wouldn't support them. It would be pretty cool if they did, but the main idea for now again is to make sure they're not wielding swords or whatever (though regular brown lizardmen in fact support separate club, halberd and "odd staff" animations if you grab the extra objects from the IA_IWD archive).
As for whatever the drow has, it's clearly a sword, as it has a crossguard, but it's pretty much the height of a drow and wielded with two hands. But I suppose we just have to grit our teeth and believe it's a 3' drow longsword, which most of them do have. Incidentally, the female drow appears to be packing a one-handed crossbow in her left hand, which is valid in PnP but not in the game engine, so I guess we just have to smile and nod at the two-handed crossbows of speed found on the same creatures.
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#9
Posted 08 July 2010 - 05:12 AM
#10
Posted 08 July 2010 - 07:23 AM
It might if it was a thrusting instead of a swinging animation. I think maybe it is just a vague animation that could vaguely resemble either a drow lance, longsword or scimitar, though quite a bit of suspension of reality is needed for any of those three .It's been a while since I last took a trip to the Underdark, but I think I always associated that animation with the drow halberd-thingie... Unless my memory really plays a trick on me. Would that work for you?
Note that there are drow that get a dark-skinned elf avatar rather than the drow (MDRO) animation above. Those can support any weapons, including halberds etc., so they're not a problem.
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"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle
#11
Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:12 AM
Just hand out a mix of long swords, scimitars, halberds and lances. Since none of them is a perfect fit you may as well add some variety.It might if it was a thrusting instead of a swinging animation. I think maybe it is just a vague animation that could vaguely resemble either a drow lance, longsword or scimitar, though quite a bit of suspension of reality is needed for any of those three .It's been a while since I last took a trip to the Underdark, but I think I always associated that animation with the drow halberd-thingie... Unless my memory really plays a trick on me. Would that work for you?
Edited by Wisp, 08 July 2010 - 08:15 AM.
#12
Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:50 AM
Well, the male drow already have that sort of gear mostly, so I wouldn't touch those - only the ones that look stupid like the ones with flails and crossbows (though those would be acceptable for the female drow).Just hand out a mix of long swords, scimitars, halberds and lances. Since none of them is a perfect fit you may as well add some variety.
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"Infinity turns out to be the opposite of what people say it is. It is not 'that which has nothing beyond itself' that is infinite, but 'that which always has something beyond itself'." -Aristotle
#13
Posted 08 July 2010 - 12:35 PM
Isn't that a glaive? Just another of the myriad of pole-arms. ADnD lists it as 2-handed, slashing, D10 damage.
#14
Posted 08 July 2010 - 01:08 PM
Nope, it's actually an Axe-sword(Machete), or properly known as "reverse curved sword"... just like this but a lot larger and used for self-defense, just like the link says the bigger versions would be used.Isn't that a glaive? Just another of the myriad of pole-arms.
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#15
Posted 08 July 2010 - 01:26 PM
But the drow weapon is curved backwards. And one of the idle animations has the drow resting the curved side of the weapon on his shoulder. Besides, the animation clearly shows it as being used for stabbing as well as for slashing.Nope, it's actually an Axe-sword(Machete), or properly known as "reverse curved sword"... just like this but a lot larger and used for self-defense, just like the link says the bigger versions would be used.
If you have to call it something I'd say it's a pole arm.
#16
Posted 08 July 2010 - 03:18 PM
It's not a pole arm... that's for sure, and if we need the weapon to be curved backwards, there are Sword"-Axes" that have that feature, like "Kriegsmesser" = "Großes Messer" = German "War Knife", and the Zhanmadao, that both are single side extra large knifes.But the drow weapon is curved backwards. And one of the idle animations has the drow resting the curved side of the weapon on his shoulder. Besides, the animation clearly shows it as being used for stabbing as well as for slashing.
If you have to call it something I'd say it's a pole arm.
It's Sword-Axe if it consists of the forms common to Sword and Axe, in my book. So the edged, commonly metal part is longer that the handle(that typically has some sort of armguard).
It's a Pole arm, if the pole that the weapon is handled from, is longer than the blade... so it's Staff(/Metal Shaft) + Knife(-> Spear), Staff + Axe(-> Halberd), Staff + Curved blade(-> Japanese polearm).
It's Lance if it has Staff + Armguard/Shield + Spike at the top.
Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 08 July 2010 - 03:32 PM.
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