87 replies to this topic

[Wisp]

As an analogous component to "PnP Fiends", "PnP Undead" will strive to bring the undead of BG1 and BG2 more in line with how they're described in PnP sources. This can include correcting resistances and attacks per round, implementing missing abilities or removing things not mentioned in PnP sources. Since some of this needs to be implemented via scripts, creature AI can also receive a boost, varying with the creature's intelligence score.

Much of the PnP material can be directly translated to BG2 and I shall try to be faithful to the spirit of the rest. But I hope no one objects if I sometimes ask for community input on some of the less clear-cut PnP-BG2 conversions.

A preliminary list of undead that will be affected include Death Knights (you may know them as "Demon Knights" but they really are undead), Skeleton Warriors, Ghouls, Mummies and Vampires.

To start things off, Death Knights can, among other things, Turn Undead and cast Detect Invisibility at will:

Death Knight vs. minor undead

Death Knight in hot pursuit

Edited by Wisp, 02 June 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[Shaitan]

Great to see such a component come to live. I'd gladly help discus certain matters

[Daulmakan]

Don't know if you've already done it, but might I suggest making all undead immune to backstab? They don't have any sensible organs to be hurt...

Maybe you could add a new component to make it more of a global change as suggested here?

[Chevalier]

Don't know if you've already done it, but might I suggest making all undead immune to backstab? They don't have any sensible organs to be hurt...

Maybe you could add a new component to make it more of a global change as suggested here?

A vampire's heart springs to mind??

[Daulmakan]

Don't know if you've already done it, but might I suggest making all undead immune to backstab? They don't have any sensible organs to be hurt...Maybe you could add a new component to make it more of a global change as suggested here?

A vampire's heart springs to mind??

No difference at all from scratching his arm unless your weapon is made of wood. It is, however, a slight distinction worth making, hence why I said:

(I'm less sure in regards to vampires and shadow fiends, but I think a case can still be made in their case).

I had a similar stand with decapitation/vorpalisation, but since removing its head is usually mentioned, the case for making them subject to the vorpal effect is stronger.


My other issue was with shadow fiends, them not being actual undead but something in between: they count as Special on the Turn Undead chart, but boast no relationship with shadows nor any of the usual traits associated with undead (level drain, disease, etc.). In fact, they dwell on the Lower planes, no connection to the Negative plane is mentioned. Furthermore, P&P describes them as actual beings with social activity and ecology akin to living beings.

[Wisp]

Don't know if you've already done it, but might I suggest making all undead immune to backstab? They don't have any sensible organs to be hurt...

Maybe you could add a new component to make it more of a global change as suggested here?

It's not something I had planned on implementing in PnP Undead, but I can certainly look into adding it as an optional component.

[DavidWallace]

Feel free to borrow chunks of AI code from SCS(II) if it's any use. (Since you're the only other person with a track record for coding in SSL.)

[Galactygon]

IMO most of the AI should be coded in SSL for greater flexibility where compatibility is concerned. I'll add a few ideas of my own:

What makes liches in AD&D more frightening than BGII (+ ScSII) is their ability to hide their life force in a phylactery - I just cannot imagine a way to implement this in BGII without a lot of effort.

Nobody noticed that vampire avaters have shadows drawn when they are not n AD&D or Bram Stoker's Dracula. Albeit it's more fitting for a mod like IA.

-Galactygon

[Wisp]

Feel free to borrow chunks of AI code from SCS(II) if it's any use. (Since you're the only other person with a track record for coding in SSL.)

Thank you. In fact, I've consulted SCSII extensively while writing the Death Knight AI.

What makes liches in AD&D more frightening than BGII (+ ScSII) is their ability to hide their life force in a phylactery - I just cannot imagine a way to implement this in BGII without a lot of effort.

Yes, it does seem rather unmanageable.

Edited by Wisp, 22 September 2010 - 09:43 AM.

[Wisp]

Okay, so something I've been thinking about:

Death Knights have some randomness in their choice of weapons according to PnP rules. This can range from a two-handed sword +4 to a short sword of life stealing. However, if they use a single-handed weapon they really should be using a shield. But the animation clearly indicates a two-handed sword and it certainly doesn't include a shield.

So, the way I see it I can implement random weapons either by following PnP and giving them a chance of e.g. using a short sword of quickness, with or without a shield, or follow BG2 and give them all two-handed swords. In the latter case we the the boring option ( ) of giving them all plain two-handed swords +3 or +4 or the more fun option of combining this with the PnP idea and giving them a chance of e.g. receiving a two-handed sword of dancing (rather than the short sword of dancing described in the Monstrous Manual). Opinions?

Also, screenshot:

All but the bravest are paralysed with fear at the sight of mummies

[Daulmakan]

So, the way I see it I can implement random weapons either by following PnP and giving them a chance of e.g. using a short sword of quickness, with or without a shield, or follow BG2 and give them all two-handed swords. In the latter case we the the boring option ( ) of giving them all plain two-handed swords +3 or +4 or the more fun option of combining this with the PnP idea and giving them a chance of e.g. receiving a two-handed sword of dancing (rather than the short sword of dancing described in the Monstrous Manual). Opinions?

I vote for the 2nd fun option, with them having the chance to get a dancing 2handed sword (that way, it'll make for variety among the death knights encountered).

[Shaitan]

Me to

I like what you've implemented with the mummies.

[Miloch]

But the animation clearly indicates a two-handed sword and it certainly doesn't include a shield.

I think short swords are out of the question but (as you say, because the animation has it) any sort of two-handed or possibly bastard sword should be ok.

Some of those swords should probably be cursed/evil if you're going to randomise them...

@Galactygon: it would probably be possible to replace the shadow palette entry with the transparent entry for the vampire animations (not saying I'm going to do it anytime soon - just saying it probably wouldn't be tough ).

[Wisp]

I like what you've implemented with the mummies.

Thank you.

possibly bastard sword should be ok.

Yes, you're right. Bastard swords would work.

Some of those swords should probably be cursed/evil if you're going to randomise them...

I thought I'd just make them undroppable
Obviously the weapons can't be droppable and usable by the party, though I guess it could be interesting if the Death Knights wielded cursed weapons. The weapons could conceivably be harmless to the Death Knight but next to useless to the party.

Edited by Wisp, 23 September 2010 - 12:18 PM.

[Miloch]

Obviously the weapons can't be droppable and usable by the party, though I guess it could be interesting if the Death Knights wielded cursed weapons. The weapons could conceivably be harmless to the Death Knight but next to useless to the party.

I can't find anything that says the party *can't* use Death Knight drops, unlike, for Helmed/Battle Horrors for example, where it says the constructs impart the magical abilities to the their weapons, so they only drop normal/masterwork weapons (and their armour is junked on death). Could be similar for death knights though, where their evil sentience actually gives their weapons their abilities, which might linger on the dropped blade in a bad way for the party.

[Turambar]

Some of those swords should probably be cursed/evil if you're going to randomise them...

I thought I'd just make them undroppable
Obviously the weapons can't be droppable and usable by the party, though I guess it could be interesting if the Death Knights wielded cursed weapons. The weapons could conceivably be harmless to the Death Knight but next to useless to the party.

Maybe, you could do like the skeleton lords from DS, who use berserker 2-handed swords: it's not a problem for them, but for the party, it could..

[DavidWallace]

Obviously the weapons can't be droppable and usable by the party, though I guess it could be interesting if the Death Knights wielded cursed weapons. The weapons could conceivably be harmless to the Death Knight but next to useless to the party.

I can't find anything that says the party *can't* use Death Knight drops

I take it the issue here is game balance, not PnP coherence.

[Wisp]

Yeah, my main concern with making the weapons droppable is dropping phat loot on the party.

There's a 20% chance the Death Knight will use a non-magical sword. If the swords is magical it's one of the following (roll 1d6; "Sword" would be bastard sword in aTweaks; it is either long or short swords in PnP):

• Sword +2
  
• Two-handed sword +3
  
• Two-handed sword +4
  
• Sword of quickness (+2, speed factor 0 according to PnP, but since speed factor is useless in BG it would give +0.5 APR)
  
• Sword of dancing (+2, can attack on its own for 4 rounds)
  
• Sword of life stealing (+2, has a 5 % chance of draining the victim of a level and healing the wielder)

One of the two-handed swords could be a cursed berserking sword, but the other sword would also need something. The plain +2 sword could be just that and the sword of life stealing could maybe also be non-harmful.

For the sword of quickness and the sword of dancing I came up with the following, possibly acceptable, drawbacks:

Sword of quickness: Cursed, ages the wielder unnaturally fast. The wielder permanently loses 1 point each from STR, DEX and CON at regular intervals and dies within 1d4 days.

Sword of dancing: Can only be used by chaotic evil. When the sword is equipped or used (made to dance) there's a 50 % chance it will instead dominate the wielder. Fun ensues as the now-charmed party member does the sword's bidding.

[Mike1072]

Sword of quickness (+2, speed factor 0 according to PnP, but since speed factor is useless in BG it would give +0.5 APR)

Half attacks can cause problems if a character receives them from multiple sources:

Key	Attacks Per Round
0	0
1	1
2	2
3	3
4	4
5	5
6	0.5
7	1.5
8	2.5
9	3.5
10	4.5

NB. When this opcode is stacked, the values of the Key Modifier are stacked, not the number of attacks.

[Demivrgvs]

Sword of quickness (+2, speed factor 0 according to PnP, but since speed factor is useless in BG it would give +0.5 APR)

Half attacks can cause problems if a character receives them from multiple sources:

Key	Attacks Per Round
0	0
1	1
2	2
3	3
4	4
5	5
6	0.5
7	1.5
8	2.5
9	3.5
10	4.5

NB. When this opcode is stacked, the values of the Key Modifier are stacked, not the number of attacks.

Didn't Taimon fixed this here?