87 replies to this topic

[DavidWallace]

There's a 20% chance the Death Knight will use a non-magical sword.

I tentatively suggest not doing this, because:

(i) once the protagonist finishes SoA and becomes immune to non-magical weapons, this becomes a serious disadvantage;
(ii) even before then, player-summoned elementals are immune to non-magical weapons
(iii) in PnP it wouldn't be an issue, as the Death Knight would be able to hit creatures vulnerable only to magic weapons by virtue of its high HD (the only way to simulate this in BG2 is to give the DK a magic weapon)

[Wisp]

Half attacks can cause problems if a character receives them from multiple sources

+1 APR it is, then. Thanks for pointing it out.

I tentatively suggest not doing this, because:

(i) once the protagonist finishes SoA and becomes immune to non-magical weapons, this becomes a serious disadvantage;
(ii) even before then, player-summoned elementals are immune to non-magical weapons
(iii) in PnP it wouldn't be an issue, as the Death Knight would be able to hit creatures vulnerable only to magic weapons by virtue of its high HD (the only way to simulate this in BG2 is to give the DK a magic weapon)

You're probably right. So no random chance of not receiving a magical weapon.

[Miloch]

Obviously the weapons can't be droppable and usable by the party, though I guess it could be interesting if the Death Knights wielded cursed weapons. The weapons could conceivably be harmless to the Death Knight but next to useless to the party.

I can't find anything that says the party *can't* use Death Knight drops

I take it the issue here is game balance, not PnP coherence.

Uh huh. (And actually you can have both here, because the PnP Treasure says "Nil" for Death Knight.) But when you see something clearly wielding a sword, you have to wonder what happened to it when you raid its corpse. Not that there should always be drops for such (there aren't for many such creatuers) - it's just less cheesy if there's a reason there isn't. I like the cursed idea though, especially since death knights are cursed by description. I'd make the dropped sword of life stealing work in reverse (naturally ) and maybe one of the 2h swords has something resembling a scroll of clumsiness attached to it. Or maybe it's an actual magical sword that can summon undead. These would invariably be hostile to the party though.

[DavidWallace]

Obviously the weapons can't be droppable and usable by the party, though I guess it could be interesting if the Death Knights wielded cursed weapons. The weapons could conceivably be harmless to the Death Knight but next to useless to the party.

I can't find anything that says the party *can't* use Death Knight drops

I take it the issue here is game balance, not PnP coherence.

Uh huh. (And actually you can have both here, because the PnP Treasure says "Nil" for Death Knight.) But when you see something clearly wielding a sword, you have to wonder what happened to it when you raid its corpse. Not that there should always be drops for such (there aren't for many such creatuers) - it's just less cheesy if there's a reason there isn't. I like the cursed idea though, especially since death knights are cursed by description. I'd make the dropped sword of life stealing work in reverse (naturally ) and maybe one of the 2h swords has something resembling a scroll of clumsiness attached to it. Or maybe it's an actual magical sword that can summon undead. These would invariably be hostile to the party though.

If it were my mod, I'd think that coding and testing adequately-cursed magic items such that the party would not use them, and inventing sufficiently high-quality item text to accompany them, wasn't a cost-effective use of my time relative to just making the item non-droppable in the first place (which, as you say, is standard throughout large parts of the game in any case). There are always cost/benefit tradeoffs in these things.

[Miloch]

If it were my mod

Ah, but it's not (nor mine), so why rain on Wisp's parade if he wants to do it? I was just throwing an idea out there anyway - I wouldn't cry if it doesn't get implemented. If they're going to be undroppable weapons though, why bother randomising their effects at all? Between the knights' hard hits and spell-like abilities, the party will hardly know what specific type of weapon is hitting them anyhow (particularly if they never see it). One could argue that mods like SCS are full of such details, some the party may never see, but that doesn't make them a waste of time.

(Now an even cooler spin of this would be to have the rare dropped sword be useful, so the party couldn't always count on the weapons being cursed... but granted, I suppose that sort of time-consuming work isn't strictly necessary to something called "PnP Undead".)

[DavidWallace]

If it were my mod

Ah, but it's not (nor mine), so why rain on Wisp's parade if he wants to do it?

I agree completely... I just know from experience that it's easy to lose track of the cost/benefit analysis.

[Wisp]

Hey, I was going to make them undroppable at first
And I think I'll do that, due to the nil treasure thing. But maybe I'll forget about the dancing sword. A undroppable dancing sword would be particularly egregious.

[Wisp]

Better yet, I'll have them drop broken swords (and use the full range of magical swords).

[Miloch]

Better yet, I'll have them drop broken swords (and use the full range of magical swords).

Boo! (the catcall, not the hamster ) Heh, actually I had though of that and was like: broken *magical* swords every time you kill one? It's possible, but perhaps even cheesier than no swords at all.

Were I DMing a campaign, I'd interpret the "Treasure Type: Nil" as being no *additional* treasure beyond the swords, which are mentioned quite explicitly. And it says nothing about them decomposing, being powered by the knights' innate power (as it does for helmed horrors). I'll admit, they're a bit overpowered, which is why the cursed idea occurred to me. I'll admit some of them could be junked too, but all of them seems a bit much. These guys aren't easy to defeat, so the party should get something for their labours, or have a small chance of that at least (apart from XP which isn't exactly difficult to obtain in your average modded game).

[DavidWallace]

These guys aren't easy to defeat, so the party should get something for their labours, or have a small chance of that at least (apart from XP which isn't exactly difficult to obtain in your average modded game).

In my view, this viewpoint really needs to be resisted. It's extremely tempting to think that, when some given section of the game becomes harder, this should lead to better rewards. But since rewards, in turn, invariably make the game easier, all you do is run to catch up (and disrupt the game's internal balance in the process). There's a reason why SCS gives basically no new rewards at all.

[Wisp]

Another consideration against adding significant loot is the number of Death Knights. With 5 Death Knights in SoA and another 5 in ToB that would be a significant amount of non-generic loot.
I'll agree junked swords is cheap, but I find it preferable to finding e.g. 2 cursed swords of quickness, or 3 cursed two-handed swords of berserking. Unlike other possible solutions it also has the advantages of being easy to implement and not being directly contrary to PnP (though I'll agree you were probably intended to receive the sword in PnP).

Edited by Wisp, 26 September 2010 - 04:23 AM.

[Galactygon]

You could generate curses from a predetermined list with random combinations at install and make sure each and every sword has slightly different effects. Is it possible to generate random item descriptions from a predetermined .tra entry list?

-Galactygon

[Wisp]

You could generate curses from a predetermined list with random combinations at install and make sure each and every sword has slightly different effects. Is it possible to generate random item descriptions from a predetermined .tra entry list?

You can in English. I'm less sure about other languages. But it would presumably work if you kept it to separate sentences.
But the question still remains if it's a worthwhile use of time to create useless items, especially on this scale.

Edit: I'll think about it. If I can think of enough curses I'll probably implement it. I don't want any duplicates.
I'm also open to suggestions, just be sure it's mean.

Edited by Wisp, 26 September 2010 - 09:55 AM.

[Miloch]

In my view, this viewpoint really needs to be resisted. It's extremely tempting to think that, when some given section of the game becomes harder, this should lead to better rewards. But since rewards, in turn, invariably make the game easier, all you do is run to catch up (and disrupt the game's internal balance in the process). There's a reason why SCS gives basically no new rewards at all.

I'm not arguing for more loot (look at the subcomponents of Aurora - they're all loot-nerfing or balancing unless you abuse them). I'm just saying it's a bit more realistic to have a small (say 10% chance or so) of getting a non-junk item. Because once the player figures out there's *always* going to be a junked or cursed sword on the corpse, they're never ever going to even look at it again, at which point why bother putting them there in the first place (and yes, you could argue that too, as you have). But if there's some small chance for a real sword, it makes it a bit more interesting. I'm not saying it should be a fully-fledged sword of life stealing or the like either (but perhaps even a very small chance for that), but perhaps just a masterwork 2h sword as suggested (and as helmed/battle horrors should have per PnP). I think it is in details like this that make mods interesting and replayable. Ones that don't pay such attention to detail tend to get old rather quickly.

[Wisp]

I'm not saying it should be a fully-fledged sword of life stealing or the like either (but perhaps even a very small chance for that), but perhaps just a masterwork 2h sword as suggested (and as helmed/battle horrors should have per PnP).

I'd rather have them drop some of the swords they actually do use, say the plain +2 and +3 swords, while junking the rest.

I think it is in details like this that make mods interesting and replayable. Ones that don't pay such attention to detail tend to get old rather quickly.

Personally I'd like to think the question of whether or not Death Knights drop loot is a marginal concern when someone decides about installing "PnP Undead".

[Daulmakan]

I'd rather have them drop some of the swords they actually do use, say the plain +2 and +3 swords, while junking the rest.

I like this option, and it seems easier to implement than some of the others suggestions.

And yeah, I'll be installing this regardless of DK's drops.

[Wisp]

Another topic that could benefit from some discussion is disease.

Most PnP diseases are slow-acting but have permanent effects. E.g. the disease spread by regular mummies in fatal in 1d6 months and damages Charisma permanently by 2 points for each month it goes untreated. The most rapid disease I've come across thus far is the one spread by Greater Mummies, which in this case, is fatal in 1d6 days and permanently damages Charisma by 2 points and Strength and Constitution by 1 point each for each day.

The way I see it, implementing diseases faithfully as per PnP may not be the most game-mechanically fun option. The disease is either inconsequential, because Cure Disease spells [1] are in abundance, or you lose some of your preciousss ability scores. On the other hand, BG2 diseases typically work by doing damage every round/second for a duration of time and/or by cumulatively lowering some ability score for a duration of time. You rarely, if ever, need to cure the disease.

I can think of a few of ways of implementing disease. Off-hand:

• After an incubation time (a few game hours?) the effects of the disease start kicking in, e.g. -2 CHA every turn for n turns for regular mummy rot. The disease in non-cumulative.
  
• Each hit from the creature imposes a one-time disease effect. E.g. each hit from a mummy lowers CHA by 2. The disease is cumulative (obviously).
  
• Much like PnP but with shorter delays, you experience the effects of the disease at regular intervals, e.g. -2 CHA every hour for regular mummy rot. The disease is non-cumulative.

Ideally I'd like to differentiate diseases from poisons (with poisons having immediate effects) and make them have reversibly permanent effects (i.e. the effects last until cured).

[1] Some PnP diseases can only be healed by some more exotic spell, like Regeneration or Heal. But due to the technicalities involved, and to avoid confusion, I'm reluctant to implement this particular aspect of those diseases.

Another screenshot:

Skeleton Warrior vs. weak-kneed minions

No, it's not your imagination; there really are a boat load of undead with fear auras.

[Daulmakan]

I can think of a few of ways of implementing disease. Off-hand:

• After an incubation time (a few game hours?) the effects of the disease start kicking in, e.g. -2 CHA every turn for n turns for regular mummy rot. The disease in non-cumulative.
• Each hit from the creature imposes a one-time disease effect. E.g. each hit from a mummy lowers CHA by 2. The disease is cumulative (obviously).
• Much like PnP but with shorter delays, you experience the effects of the disease at regular intervals, e.g. -2 CHA every hour for regular mummy rot. The disease is non-cumulative.

I'd prefer option 1. I don't wanna have a character die of stat draining simply because the party ran afoul of a mummy in the wrong place and there's no immediate Cure Disease available.

[Galactygon]

If it were me, I'd do a "Poison and Disease" mod, which systematically covers the poison and disease effects of all creatures in the game. My (main) request for such a feature would be to do a standardized disease system that other modders can use.

* After an incubation time (a few game hours?) the effects of the disease start kicking in, e.g. -2 CHA every turn for n turns for regular mummy rot. The disease in non-cumulative.
* Each hit from the creature imposes a one-time disease effect. E.g. each hit from a mummy lowers CHA by 2. The disease is cumulative (obviously).
* Much like PnP but with shorter delays, you experience the effects of the disease at regular intervals, e.g. -2 CHA every hour for regular mummy rot. The disease is non-cumulative.

If it were me, I'd use combinations of 1 and 2 depending on how powerful the creature is. What would make disease especially dangerous (compared to poison) is that it can spread from one character to another. Now that opcode 272 is fixed, use that with a nested opcode 146 (cast a shell spell).

Ideally I'd like to differentiate diseases from poisons (with poisons having immediate effects) and make them have reversibly permanent effects (i.e. the effects last until cured).

I have a working AD&D poison system archived somewhere with onset times and everything, with slow poison slowing delaying the onset time.

IMO the main difference between disease and poison would be the following:
- Poisons would have onset times, after which they do a fixed amount of damage. Disease takes longer to kill one person. All diseases (if left untreated) spread by monsters should be deadly within one week. Not all poisons are deadly, but the ones that are kill very quickly.
- Diseases can (in most cases) spread from one person to another. This would not be true for poisons.

[1] Some PnP diseases can only be healed by some more exotic spell, like Regeneration or Heal. But due to the technicalities involved, and to avoid confusion, I'm reluctant to implement this particular aspect of those diseases.

This is easily doable by adding sectypes and using timing mode 9. I haven't tried this with the disease opcode, but it works for pretty much everything - SpellPack B6 prevents characters killed from Finger of Death from being raised by giving raise dead / resurrection special sectypes. These sectypes are protected against when a character is hit by a finger of death/pwkill using nested eff files (General of "Dead" is automatically set by the engine for dead characters) with a timing mode 9.

The effects that protect against the raise dead sectypes have their own sectype in a shell spell called "Permanent Death". This sectype is (successfully) removed when a character is raised by a wish or reincarnation, so characters killed again by normal means can be raised/resurrected.

-Galactygon