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Balancing DSotSC for BWP


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#21 Lollorian

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 10:09 AM

It's just a mod that mods other mods ;) They're not actually changing the content of the original mod packages themselves. so any changes/bugs/stupid stuff that you get from the modded mod are the responsibility of these guys (if you use the Balancer ofc :lol:)

Besides, I think erebusant himself once said that he's not interested in changing any content in DS/NTotSC since he was just the maintainer for the BGT versions, so it's better to balance them this way rather than get erebusant into trouble ^_^ (where is he btw??)

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#22 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 10:59 AM

Can i just ask, have you consulted the mod author about these changes? It's one thing to make changes locally and keep them to yourselves with no one any the wiser, but to distribute something publicly is rather different.

Do you intend to ask all the authors of the mods you plan on "balancing" first if they are allright with such?

Balance is a very relative thing for one, anyways.


In a word... No.
Like Lollorian said this is a mod that mods other mods, thus we neatly circumvent all issues of copyright.

As for your second point I don't believe that balance is subjective.
I grant you that many of the changes done will be based on subjective appraisals. These appraisals however will be based on the guidelines that the vanilla game suggests (like no higher weapon enchantments than +3 in TotSC, +5 in SoA and +6 in ToB) and feedback from the community. If you disagree with our appraisal you will be free to tell us so and argue your point.

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 01 January 2010 - 11:11 AM.


#23 Miloch

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:17 PM

Maybe I missed it, but why not reference this thread, OneEyedPhoenix? I believe you started it, and already had a pretty good list going.

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#24 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:59 PM

Maybe I missed it, but why not reference this thread, OneEyedPhoenix? I believe you started it, and already had a pretty good list going.


You are right Miloch, I guess I should post those in this thread.

Post #1 updated with some balancing suggestions I made three years ago. Feel free to comment on them.

Edit: I see we had diverging ideas on several of the items 10th. Care to comment?

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 01 January 2010 - 03:05 PM.


#25 10th

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 05:17 PM

dsamul03
Is it even implemented anywhere? At least not in any .are or .cre.

dsamul07
In the past I equipped my party with those, nowadays I prefer a simple amulet of protection or dsamul10 which gives some decent bonus spells. I would like it very much if I could use the latter in SoA-ToB, as you're always short of Stoneskins.

dsarrow1
Never worked for me, could be because the forest dragon always had his Stoneskin up. And by the time it would have worked he was already dead. But I would give it an even greater bonus to hit and damage. There are only seven arrows in total and arrows of piercing are still superior.

dsbelt01
Sure, seems appropiate.

dsbook01
Perfect, the original was 'just a bit' over the top.

dsbrac01
If we're going to adhere to the history blurb, remove the magic resistance as these gloves are intended for combat and not for spellslinger protection. Keep the +1 attack bonus and the +1 to saves. Personally I'd drop to AC to 3 or even 4 and make it wearable by all mages and not implement any miscast magic effect.

dsbrac02
Is even worse than you stated, because it sets Base AC to 2. The change is fine.

dsclck04
Change is OK, as it already grants the effect of a perament protection from undead.

dscoswd
Why? It was only 2% kill chance to begin with.

dscuswd
Bless etc. probably fall under 'special powers'

dsdrgsk
Weren't there already some AC 4 bracers in DSotSC, or were they from another mod? Personally I'd set it like you to AC 4 but would add 10% resistance to mundane attacks (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing).

dsebplat
Sure, but could you also remove the +1 behind Full Plate? Because it only grants AC 1 and not AC 0.

dshamm02
Never found it in all my playthroughs. Where is it?

dskorim
A bit harsh. Splint Mail is at least AC 4, as it's enchanted I'd change it to AC 3.

dsrngfsh
Your proposed change would simply nerf it. I'd offer choice between casting or fighting.

dsrobe03
Why change dsmortus.cre at all? Simply change the item to undroppable as he's afaik the only one who wears it.

dsrobe05
No change required, because as soon as the party leaves through one of the two available exits it disintegrates.

dsrobe06
+3 to saves and it should be fine. Because -30% CON is harsh, moreover all the Never Need Sleep does, is immunity to fatigue effect. The wearer still needs to rest in order to replenish his/her spells.

dsswd07
Why? A bard is bad enough as it is. I would drop it's enchantment from 5 to 2.


While you're at it, care to fix some items from DSotSC?
dsamul06 should reportedly protect from fire, but it only 'protects' you from getting a bonus to fire resistance.
The same goes for dsamul01 it protects from acid resistance bonus :blink:

More items to balance:
dschan02 - Crusader's Armor
Effective AC of -3 due to hidden AC bonus vs all weapons. Change it to AC 1 or 2 and restore original Splint Mail AC bonuses/penalties.

dschan04 - Sukien Holy Armor
Once again extreme AC bonus, this time effectively -4. Drop to Base AC 0 or 1 and restore original Splint Mail AC bonuses/penalties.

dsclck02 - Faded Cloak
Joke item. Doesn't do anything besides filling your coffers if you sell it. Remove Translucent and grant it (Improved) Invisibility, castable 1-2 times per day to justify its exorbitant price.

dscoarm - Conchobair's Armor
Drop it to AC 0 and restore original Plate Mail AC bonuses/penalties.

dsfearm - Ferthgil's Armor
Same as above.

By the way Yarrow's tears is so much better than Celestial Fury it isn't even funny anymore: Save vs Spell at -4 with 48 seconds duration!

10th

Edited by 10th, 01 January 2010 - 06:35 PM.

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#26 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 04:45 AM

Good stuff 10th and you are right about dsamul03 and dshamm02. I have done some serious mapping of how the DSotSC mod changes the game and these particular items are not implemented beyond copying them to the override directory. You seem to have a very in depth knowledge about this mod btw... If you stick around I'm sure we will find more of your comments useful, as we update with more/better suggestions of our own.

No to go finish our modders reference... (BTW. If anybody knows a better way to make these, rather than typing them out by hand, I would be ever so gratefull!)

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 02 January 2010 - 04:47 AM.


#27 Hoppy

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 03:05 PM

dshamm02
Never found it in all my playthroughs. Where is it?




It seems there are a few items in the DSotSC flavor that are unused (not in stores, areas, creatures or added with script). I found that DSDAGG02 (some vampire dagger) was not in any files either. NTotSC has a good handful of items that are unique that are never to be found. I have crossed check some of the items a while ago in the BG1 versions of the two and confirmed that items are not used.

I know it is not the scope of this project to restore unused content but the items could still be balanced in the same theme of this mod and the maintainer of the BGT versions can implement the unused items somehow.

I did not make a list of the items that were lost because it was a while ago and I was busy with a CtB update but I did do some area edits and I could find them again. Some of those could have been DS also.
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#28 -melkor_morgoth75-

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 04:17 PM

Still me not able to login ... i did write a LONG reply, but it was cancelled, damned!

Anyway, I believe we have to take into consideration the BG1 portion of the game. We're changing BG1 mods, so i don't see the reason to think about SoA and ToB. I also leave to players to choose the "cheezy" version of BGT (items transition), but really i wouldn't care about BG1 items in BG2.
My experience in a heavy Bg1 modded game is that u don't need those DSotSC overpowered items, even if u have SCS and BGSpawn istalled. I strongly believe that mosto of +2 and +3 weapons could become "normal" +1 ones, with maybe different description or slight difference on abilities. Items with 30% chances of stunning, could be dropped to 5% and so on. Still some of the items are "bugged" (they use different prof. or they're prof. description are wrong) and we should change that as well. Also those items who give +3 Thac0 and Dexterity could easily become cursed with penalties instead ;)

This is my general view, also ... regarding author's permission, we don't need it as original authors disappeared from years. So it's up to the player play the original version or the balanced one eventually ;)

Just my 2 cents for now .. hoping to solve connecting issues soon :P
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#29 Hoppy

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:53 AM

Still me not able to login ... i did write a LONG reply, but it was cancelled, damned!



I hope you have not been banned :lol: :P

Good luck with your modding!
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"If you think that a size of the mod indicates an amount of bugs that it introduces and their severity you're totally wrong...
Try not to use next time a load of shitty "super-mega-improving-tweaking-revising" small mods that you have installed and try to meet Wulfgar once again."
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Posted Image The Definitive Guide to Trolls

"Finding food and a place to sleep is your own business. I imagine Paul the Cat should have some fun with you, too" - Potencius in The Darkest Day
"You have been warned, little bastard!" -Khelben to a young <CHARNAME>in Check the Bodies
There are those who will snivel, and offer nothing in return except criticism, meanwhile never lifting a finger to do other than to cut other peoples labor down simply for the fact that they lack the capability to put anything of their own together. -erebusant

#30 Hoppy

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:12 AM

@OEP

dsbrac01

Original:


Even the most powerful of sages can at times find themselves unprepared for a battle and without the magic to defeat an opponent. It was for just these times that Sharga commissioned these gloves to be made. They provide a practitioner of magic with a little extra help when the fight degenerates to direct combat.

STATISTICS:

Armor Class: 0

Special:
Increased Attacks
Increased Saving Throws
+25% to Magic Resistance



My version:

Even the most powerful of sages can at times find themselves unprepared for a battle and without the magic to defeat an opponent. It was for just these times that Sharga commissioned these gloves to be made. They provide a practitioner of magic with a little extra help when the fight degenerates to direct combat, unfortunately they prevent spells from being cast and must be removed by magical means.

STATISTICS:

Armor Class: 2

Special:
Increased Attacks
Increased Saving Throws
+25% to Magic Resistance


Added 100% chance to miscast magic, and made it cursed.


Maybe reduce the saves and the attacks and reduce the AC like you did. Making it miscast magic and cursed is not improving anything and changes the item quality rather than balancing it. That constitutes content change (normal to cursed) and why would mage bracers forged by a fighter mage miscast magic 100%? Also you could reduce 25% MR to 5% or 10%. All the abilities are just reduced following similar procedures in your balancing of other items. This was the only one I disagree with ;)
?May God defend me from my friends; I can defend myself from my enemies.? - Voltaire

"If you think that a size of the mod indicates an amount of bugs that it introduces and their severity you're totally wrong...
Try not to use next time a load of shitty "super-mega-improving-tweaking-revising" small mods that you have installed and try to meet Wulfgar once again."
- King Diamond


Posted Image The Definitive Guide to Trolls

"Finding food and a place to sleep is your own business. I imagine Paul the Cat should have some fun with you, too" - Potencius in The Darkest Day
"You have been warned, little bastard!" -Khelben to a young <CHARNAME>in Check the Bodies
There are those who will snivel, and offer nothing in return except criticism, meanwhile never lifting a finger to do other than to cut other peoples labor down simply for the fact that they lack the capability to put anything of their own together. -erebusant

#31 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:44 AM

Special:
Increased Attacks
Increased Saving Throws

Could those be a bit more specific, like:

Special:
+1 Attacks per round
+1 to all Saving Throws

0r the like.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 04 January 2010 - 10:44 AM.

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#32 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 04:08 PM

I did not make a list of the items that were lost because it was a while ago and I was busy with a CtB update but I did do some area edits and I could find them again. Some of those could have been DS also.


I have made a very thorough modders reference for when we start deciding what to change, so I have a good overview of which items are not actually ingame (and how many ingame copies there are of the rest).

Maybe reduce the saves and the attacks and reduce the AC like you did. Making it miscast magic and cursed is not improving anything and changes the item quality rather than balancing it. That constitutes content change (normal to cursed) and why would mage bracers forged by a fighter mage miscast magic 100%? Also you could reduce 25% MR to 5% or 10%. All the abilities are just reduced following similar procedures in your balancing of other items. This was the only one I disagree with ;)


I agree, that one would have been content change rather than balancing. I think I suggested it to have some item variation.

This reminds me of a technical point which ought to be discussed however. Many of these items are quite boring while others are just way overpowered. Adding drawbacks to overpowered items or giving more interesting effects to boring items is an alternate way of balancing/revising these. I think that was why I didn't nerf the mentioned bracers all that much. Maybe a mage made them for when he had run out of spells... What do you guys think?

Special:
Increased Attacks
Increased Saving Throws

Could those be a bit more specific, like:

Special:
+1 Attacks per round
+1 to all Saving Throws

0r the like.


Perhaps. They are going to have to be changed at any rate.

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 04 January 2010 - 04:13 PM.


#33 prowler

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:29 AM

Idea is still alive or not? :rolleyes:

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#34 Turambar

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:33 PM

Idea is still alive or not? :rolleyes:

Yes, but that will probably take some time.
The one currently in beta is a minor update for DSotSC, which does not modify its contents.
I'm planning to do a greater update to DSotSC later, but, considering that I'd also like to switch to the ADD_SPELL system, that will require that NTotSC is updated before. And that will also require some more time. That major update should implement the possibility to choose between original and nerfed items (and that's why I pinned these topics...).

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